Is Scandinavia Wealthy? NYT article/propaganda?

[brooklynprospect]

NY Times
April 17, 2005
PERSPECTIVE


We're Rich, You're Not. End of Story.
By BRUCE BAWER

OSLO — THE received wisdom about economic life in the Nordic countries is easily summed up: people here are incomparably affluent, with all their needs met by an efficient welfare state. They believe it themselves. Yet the reality - as this Oslo-dwelling American can attest, and as some recent studies confirm - is not quite what it appears.

Even as the Scandinavian establishment peddles this dubious line, it serves up a picture of the United States as a nation divided, inequitably, among robber barons and wage slaves, not to mention armies of the homeless and unemployed. It does this to keep people believing that their social welfare system, financed by lofty income taxes, provides far more in the way of economic protections and amenities than the American system. Protections, yes -but some Norwegians might question the part about amenities.

In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious shortages of police officers and school supplies. When my mother-in-law went to an emergency room recently, the hospital was out of cough medicine. Drug addicts crowd downtown Oslo streets, as The Los Angeles Times recently reported, but applicants for methadone programs are put on a months-long waiting list.

In Norway, the standard line is that there must be some mistake, that such things simply should not happen in "the world's richest country." Why do Norwegians have such a wealthy self-image? Partly because, compared with their grandparents (who lived before the discovery of North Sea oil), they are rich. Few, however, question whether it really is the world's richest country.

After I moved here six years ago, I quickly noticed that Norwegians live more frugally than Americans do. They hang on to old appliances and furniture that we would throw out. And they drive around in wrecks. In 2003, when my partner and I took his teenage brother to New York - his first trip outside of Europe - he stared boggle-eyed at the cars in the Newark Airport parking lot, as mesmerized as Robin Williams in a New York grocery store in "Moscow on the Hudson."

One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.

Yes, teachers are underpaid everywhere. But in Norway the matpakke is ubiquitous, from classroom to boardroom. In New York, an office worker might pop out at lunchtime to a deli; in Paris, she might enjoy quiche and a glass of wine at a brasserie. In Norway, she will sit at her desk with a sandwich from home.

It is not simply a matter of tradition, or a preference for a basic, nonmaterialistic life. Dining out is just too pricey in a country where teachers, for example, make about $50,000 a year before taxes. Even the humblest of meals - a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent value added tax.

Not that groceries are cheap, either. Every weekend, armies of Norwegians drive to Sweden to stock up at supermarkets that are a bargain only by Norwegian standards. And this isn't a great solution, either, since gasoline (in this oil-exporting nation) costs more than $6 a gallon.

All this was illuminated last year in a study by a Swedish research organization, Timbro, which compared the gross domestic products of the 15 European Union members (before the 2004 expansion) with those of the 50 American states and the District of Columbia. (Norway, not being a member of the union, was not included.)

After adjusting the figures for the different purchasing powers of the dollar and euro, the only European country whose economic output per person was greater than the United States average was the tiny tax haven of Luxembourg, which ranked third, just behind Delaware and slightly ahead of Connecticut.

The next European country on the list was Ireland, down at 41st place out of 66; Sweden was 14th from the bottom (after Alabama), followed by Oklahoma, and then Britain, France, Finland, Germany and Italy. The bottom three spots on the list went to Spain, Portugal and Greece.

Alternatively, the study found, if the E.U. was treated as a single American state, it would rank fifth from the bottom, topping only Arkansas, Montana, West Virginia and Mississippi. In short, while Scandinavians are constantly told how much better they have it than Americans, Timbro's statistics suggest otherwise. So did a paper by a Swedish economics writer, Johan Norberg.

Contrasting "the American dream" with "the European daydream," Mr. Norberg described the difference: "Economic growth in the last 25 years has been 3 percent per annum in the U.S., compared to 2.2 percent in the E.U. That means that the American economy has almost doubled, whereas the E.U. economy has grown by slightly more than half. The purchasing power in the U.S. is $36,100 per capita, and in the E.U. $26,000 - and the gap is constantly widening."

The one detail in Timbro's study that didn't feel right to me was the placement of Scandinavian countries near the top of the list and Spain near the bottom. My own sense of things is that Spaniards live far better than Scandinavians. In Norwegian pubs, for example, anyone rich or insane enough to order, say, a gin and tonic is charged about $15 for a few teaspoons of gin at the bottom of a glass of tonic; in Spain, the drinks are dirt-cheap and the bartender will pour the gin up to the rim unless you say "stop."

In late March, another study, this one from KPMG, the international accounting and consulting firm, cast light on this paradox. It indicated that when disposable income was adjusted for cost of living, Scandinavians were the poorest people in Western Europe. Danes had the lowest adjusted income, Norwegians the second lowest, Swedes the third. Spain and Portugal, with two of Europe's least regulated economies, led the list.

Most recently, the Danish Ministry of Finance released a study comparing the income available for private consumption in 30 countries. Norway did somewhat better here than in the KPMG study, lagging behind most of Western Europe but at least beating out Ireland and Portugal.

The thrust, however, was to confirm Timbro's and Mr. Norberg's picture of American and European wealth. While the private-consumption figure for the United States was $32,900 per person, the countries of Western Europe (again excepting Luxembourg, at $29,450) ranged between $13,850 and $23,500, with Norway at $18,350.

Meanwhile, the references to Norway as "the world's richest country" keep on coming. An April 2 article in Dagsavisen, a major Oslo daily, asked: How is it that "in the world's richest country we're tearing down social services that were built up when Norway was much poorer?"

Obviously, this is one misconception that won't be put to rest by a measly think-tank study or two.

[Englishman]

Is health caree included in the US's private consumption figure? It's a silly comparison in some ways as there is a lot of stuff we don't directly pay for in Europe such as health care.

[solbyair]

In Europe everbody loves paying their taxes. Especially progressive tax systems (= the more you earn, the more you pay and if you happen to have two jobs you pay even more) are widely popular here in the western Europe. This might possibly change however. The flat tax reforms in the eastern Europe have been met with some admiration even here in Sweden. Personally, I think a flat tax would remove a lot of the incitaments for tax crimes. I feverbody payed the same it wouldn´t be many incitaments for cheating with paying less than you have to etc.

[tom042]

Although I'm inclined to think that the US does have a higher standard of living than almost all European countries, including most of Scandanavia, this article seems biased. The author sounds like he's bitter for some reason, and I wouldn't trust that his anecdotes about things like $50 pizzas are very representative.

[NorthStar77]

Quoting what I wrote on skyscraperpage.com:

This article is quite hilarious, I must say. It sounds strange to me that this person have lived here for 6 years. He has atleast done no effort whatsoever in understanding Norwegian culture and way of thinking.

Like the thing with "matpakke". That is because norwegians like their dark bread with brown cheese on, and not a fat sandwich with 200 grams of ham on it(what do you think is most healthy?;)). This is not a matter of wealth, even Swedes redicule us for it. And the thing about furnitures, maybe we don't want to change them every second year. Throwing perfectly fine things just because it is a few years old is bad, bad, bad. Still, not a day goes by without we hear complaints about how people are more and more becoming used to the Amercan "use and throw" culture.

Then it is the issue with cars. It seems that he have not understood that everything related to cars are heavily taxed here. And there is a good reason for that! Further explanation should not be necesary on this board.

Is the standard to which all other countries should aspire the American way? Do we really need to measure happiness and wealth by SUV's and tract housing?
The essence of what I'm trying to say.

He has a few points, but most things are grossly exagerrated. And he proves the stereotype us Norwegians have towards American culture, namely that it is way too obsessed with consumerism.


Outdated libraries

Errr, FALSE!

public pools in disrepair

Partly true, but getting better

police shortages

Yet a crimerate most places in the US can only dream about. The police here do not need to carry guns...

school supply shortages

Partly true

hospitals with no cough medicine

Muahaha, What??

drug addicts in the streets

Very true. It's a cultural phenomenon though, has little to do with $$

$40 large pizzas and $15 drinks.

I buy large pizzas(enough for 3 persons to be full) for less than 100nok (15$). Pizzaplaces offering that is all over central eastern Oslo. And there are lots of italian pizzarestaurant I'm visiting, serving good pizzas for 80 nok(12-13$). Lots of chinese places have good meals in the 10-12$ range. I don't know about that drink of his, but I use to drink 0,5l beers for 33-45 nok(5-7$). I've just been to New York, and this is about the same prices as you have to pay there, when you consider that prices here are included tax, and that we don't pay anything in tip....

He seems very angry, for some reason. He has a point when he says that the phrase "we as the richest nation in the world should afford to....". This is often said by ignorant people with low IQ that want the goverment to take care of all their life. But it is not a matter of pride. Go ahead America, be richer than us, I couldn't care one bit! If anything, both we and americans should be ashamed for not sharing more of our wealth with the rest of the world. Atleast Norway gives close to 1% of it's GDP to developing countries, compared to 0,2-0,3% in the US. And privates give alot too...

He obviously does not like the way we live, so why is he here(if he is at all)? Yankee go home.

/quote

and:
The more I think of the original articles attempt to paint the Norwegian economy in black, the more hilarious it becomes. There are problems here, as everywhere else. AFAIK, Utopia is not yet created. Norwegian economy is going better than ever, and I think few economies have been healthier in the history of mankind.

We have a huge fund, wich now increases by aprox 30-35 billion US$ each year(I'm pretty sure it will be even more this year). This is about 20% of our GDP. The fund was worth 1000 billion NOK(~155 billion US$), by the end of 2004. Does the US have a proportionally similar 2.000 billion surpluss on its state bugdet? That should make it pretty clear who has the best economy.

/quote

[samsonyuen]

It's certainly wealthy, but its cost of living is quite high, so not quite as wealthy as raw numbers show, I guess.

[earthJoker]

The article is clearly based. Instead of showing statistics it only picks out random stuff. You can always win a comparison by picking out single examples. He just compares his bad experience in Norway with his good experience in the US. Clearly if he would make it vice verse Norway would win.

[Jury]

yes its wealthy

[Þróndeimr]

Thats quite a spectacular view on Norway. :)

[Lee]

The point of the article is that the cost of living is high, therefore its high GDP per head when adjusted for 'cost of living' isn't that much higher than say Spain. This is why, according to the article, Norwegians spend a lot less money than say Americans and the Japanese, and have one of the "lowest buying powers in Europe." Christian, can you disprove this?

[Renkinjutsushi]

Its Propaganda, he thinks Norwegians (and the rest of the world) should live like the United States.

[Ning]

American press was really killed on the 9/11 :(

[Ringil]

humbug...

and by the way, driving old cars doesn't mean you're poor. Ingvar Kamprad, the founder of IKEA and the 6th richest man on earth, drives a very old Volvo and he doesn't like all the expensive shit you're are expected to buy when you're rich.

[wolkenkrabber]

how cute, them silly lil buggers at NY times, you teaser journalist you

[Jonesy55]

The point of the article is that the cost of living is high, therefore its high GDP per head when adjusted for 'cost of living' isn't that much higher than say Spain. This is why, according to the article, Norwegians spend a lot less money than say Americans and the Japanese, and have one of the "lowest buying powers in Europe." Christian, can you disprove this?

Well, that's the point in PPP measurements of GDP as opposed to straight MER comparisons isn't it. Even when PPP has been taken into account Norway comes out as one of the richest countries in the world.

The guy is obviously bitter/biased and as for the $50 for a take-away pizza claim, that is just ridiculous. When I went to NYC I found it to be one of the most expensive places I'd been as a tourist and I know it costs a fortune to rent or buy accommodation there too.

Most of Europe does have less disposable income than the US but you have to balance that against the social benefits of free healthcare, less inequality and generally better public services.

Not throwing stuff away every time you feel like it seems like a responsible attitude to me, not a sign of poverty.

btw Japan isn't exactly a cheap nation either!

[rocky]

we all know in europe that scandinavian countries have the best economic and social systems in the world, the most educated people and the most mature people (probably). They are a model for the world in every way.

the NY times is not a reliable source by the way.

and im not scandinavian

[Justadude]

It's a trashy article. The guy makes fun of a teacher for packing her lunch instead of buying it at restaurants that even HE argues are overpriced?

There's very little here but anecdotes and unfair comparisons. If anything, he's just reinforcing his own vision of what it means to be 'wealthy' (new car, new furniture, overpriced lunches, etc.).

[panamared]

look whos talking the us jajajajajajajaj thats a joke ???? usa to me have a real problem everywhere , education it really bad in usa , crime , please there is no other contry whit more crime in the world, health care in usa is really bad and the cost is high ,housing in usa is bad , most of the people live in places whit really bad conditions, unemployment is higher to what the us goberment really say , homeless,portitution, drugs is everywhere in the usa , percapita, i really think that us percapita is a big lie, that really dont show what must of the workforce earn in a year, so to me usa is not the best place to live and they trying to show them self to the world as the best when its not true, sorry but thats the true.

[JARdan]

NY Times
April 17, 2005
PERSPECTIVE
Pretty shitty perspective, if you ask me.

[Jonesy55]

look whos talking the us jajajajajajajaj thats a joke ???? usa to me have a real problem everywhere , education it really bad in usa , crime , please there is no other contry whit more crime in the world, health care in usa is really bad and the cost is high ,housing in usa is bad , most of the people live in places whit really bad conditions, unemployment is higher to what the us goberment really say , homeless,portitution, drugs is everywhere in the usa , percapita, i really think that us percapita is a big lie, that really dont show what must of the workforce earn in a year, so to me usa is not the best place to live and they trying to show them self to the world as the best when its not true, sorry but thats the true.

I think your 'perspective' is just as inaccurate as the New York Times article! No country in the world with more crime than the USA, really???? How about Iraq, Somalia or Nigeria?? If education in the US is so terrible why do they have a higher proportion of people with university degrees than virtually anywhere else and why do people from all over the world send their kids to Harvard, Yale etc?

Most of the US population live in middle class Suburbia which is hardly 'really bad conditions' even it isn't exactly exciting ;)

Healthcare in the USis also very good (but expensive) for those who can get it. It's just bad that large numbers of the population don't have access to it.

[panamared]

I think your 'perspective' is just as inaccurate as the New York Times article! No country in the world with more crime than the USA, really???? How about Iraq, Somalia or Nigeria?? If education in the US is so terrible why do they have a higher proportion of people with university degrees than virtually anywhere else and why do people from all over the world send their kids to Harvard, Yale etc?

Most of the US population live in middle class Suburbia which is hardly 'really bad conditions' even it isn't exactly exciting ;)

Healthcare in the USis also very good (but expensive) for those who can get it. It's just bad that large numbers of the population don't have access to it.


just come and see for your self and you see all the answers :cheers:

[DeiraBoy]

even though i haven't been to either country mentioned, i like the subject here. i think u can tell that this guy is biased when he says:

Even the humblest of meals - a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent value added tax.

i mean, you wouldn't expect Oslo's most popular pizza joint to be cheap would u? I live in the UK, and a pizza in Pizza Express, which is good but not 'the most popular' can cost about 15 pounds and thats not even a large one (usually serves as a one-person main course). This equates to nearly $30.

Also, although he did mention the comparison of individual EU states to those of the USA, he chose to concentrate more on the comparison of the EU as a whole to individual states in the US and also to compare it to the US. I don't think that is a fair comparison. The US is one country and each member of the EU is a country in its own right too, and its very easy to see how stats could be skewed by choosing to compare the way he did. Also, the EU does not operate in the same way as the US, for one thing they don't have one language or one nationality. I think economic growth of 2.2% for the EU compared to 3% for the US is a really good achievement for the EU and not as good for the US, because you have to consider that the EU has had to cope with growing out of communism (in some areas) and also 35 years ago was only 25 years after the end of WWII where many parts of Europe were destroyed and reconstruction takes its toll on the economy dont u think?

anyway, im not an expert on the EU economy or the US's for that matter, i just like the subject and i think these matters should also be taken into consideration

[NorthStar77]

The guy is obviously bitter/biased and as for the $50 for a take-away pizza claim, that is just ridiculous. When I went to NYC I found it to be one of the most expensive places I'd been as a tourist and I know it costs a fortune to rent or buy accommodation there too.


Yup. Just came back from NYC a few weeks ago, and eating and drinking wasn't much cheaper there than here. You get more meat for the same amount of money, but I don't want that extra meat, I don't manage to eat it all.

The guy is right when he says it's possible to buy such and expencive pizza at Peppes, the most popular pizza-delivery chain. What he doesn't mention is that you get a 1,5 litre coca cola and one of the latest blockbuster Hollywood films on DVD along with it!

In New York, arriving late in the evening at Time Square, the first thing we did was to crash in to a place that looked like it had beer. They did. It costed 12$....pluss tax....pluss tip, I've never had a more expencive beer anywhere in my life. Maybe I should make an article about how expencive America is :nuts:

This isn't serious journalism..I thought NYTimes were better than this!

[Justadude]

In New York, arriving late in the evening at Time Square, the first thing we did was to crash in to a place that looked like it had beer. They did. It costed 12$....pluss tax....pluss tip, I've never had a more expencive beer anywhere in my life. Maybe I should make an article about how expencive America is :nuts:

Holy crap... you could get a hooker for less than $12 in Times Square :)

[Justadude]

just come and see for your self and you see all the answers :cheers:

What's that supposed to mean? Instead of being cryptic why don't you back up the assertions that the US has the world's highest crime rate, that most of its people live in poor conditions, and that the health care and education systems are both "bad".

Or, you could admit you're just spewing biased nonsense that you read on a blog somewhere and try to earn back a little respect.

[SHiRO]

Stupid and old.
L.E.E...., get a life...

[Locust]

Scandinavian countries as socialistic heavens have been the myth for decades....
I wondet what the true reality is like...
I've only been to US... so I can not speak for Scandinavia....
As for US, it is a country in `perpetual youth' with influx of talented immigrants and
reinventing of its system/industrial structure.... it does not need a propaganda to show
that indeed it is the wealthiest country in the world...

The issue here is that the Europeans have a rock soid belief that somehow they are superior
to amercans... if not in military.... at least in quality of life, etc. But the thing is in a continent
that is quickly aging with birth rate not keeping up with the mortality rate... who is keeping the
system?

[panamared]

What's that supposed to mean? Instead of being cryptic why don't you back up the assertions that the US has the world's highest crime rate, that most of its people live in poor conditions, and that the health care and education systems are both "bad".

Or, you could admit you're just spewing biased nonsense that you read on a blog somewhere and try to earn back a little respect.

well i live in usa so i know whats going on in the usa so shhhhhhhhh please you are the one that dont make any sense.

[HirakataShi]

Scandinavian countries as socialistic heavens have been the myth for decades....
I wondet what the true reality is like...
I've only been to US... so I can not speak for Scandinavia....
As for US, it is a country in `perpetual youth' with influx of talented immigrants and
reinventing of its system/industrial structure.... it does not need a propaganda to show
that indeed it is the wealthiest country in the world...

The issue here is that the Europeans have a rock soid belief that somehow they are superior
to amercans... if not in military.... at least in quality of life, etc. But the thing is in a continent
that is quickly aging with birth rate not keeping up with the mortality rate... who is keeping the
system?

True. Many of the North American liberals who worship the idea of the Scandinavian "cradle to grave" socialist state with free drugs, free sex, free everything don't realise how conservative those countries can be. For example: Pornography is censored in Norway and marijuana possession is punished with long jail terms in Sweden.

[Justadude]

well i live in usa so i know whats going on in the usa

You're half right.

[Justadude]

True. Many of the North American liberals who worship the idea of the Scandinavian "cradle to grave" socialist state with free drugs, free sex, free everything don't realise how conservative those countries can be. For example: Pornography is censored in Norway and marijuana possession is punished with long jail terms in Sweden.

More significantly, there has to be a pretty strict restriction on citizenship in order for the system to work. You can't afford to take on loads of poor refugees or other immigrants if you want to keep the system running (at least not unless you come across some huge economic windfall). North American countries like the USA and Canada, which are pretty immigrant-friendly, wouldn't last very long with a Scandinavian economic system.

[eusebius]

reasons why you can't compare by what's mentioned in the article:

1/ much differing demographics, Norway is no immigration country
2/ the EU has been expanding and included now are the stats for former eastern bloc countries as well.

Just think for example of a much higher life expectancy and speaking of money; how much does Norway give as development aid, and how much do the USA? Well, huh?

How many US citizens have been educated in Norway, and how many Norwegian citizens have been educated in the USA? Well, huh?

Have Norwegian forces and intelligence roamed poorer, instable countries to bargain off business deals?

Whose budget deficit is mind boggling? Norway's?

[eusebius]

True. Many of the North American liberals who worship the idea of the Scandinavian "cradle to grave" socialist state with free drugs, free sex, free everything don't realise how conservative those countries can be. For example: Pornography is censored in Norway and marijuana possession is punished with long jail terms in Sweden.
1/ Do you have paid sex?? That's a sorry affair!

2/ Does one serve a longer sentence in Sweden than in the USA?

[DonQui]

The New York Times has been writing utter shit recently.

[Justadude]

Just think for example of a much higher life expectancy and speaking of money; how much does Norway give as development aid, and how much do the USA? Well, huh?

How many US citizens have been educated in Norway, and how many Norwegian citizens have been educated in the USA? Well, huh?

Have Norwegian forces and intelligence roamed poorer, instable countries to bargain off business deals?

Whose budget deficit is mind boggling? Norway's?

What does any of that have to do with quality of life?

[Rigadon]

Somebody above raises an interstign point. Do PPP figures factor in tipping? I m guessign they dont.

I only ever really tip in restaraunts - Ive never tipped in pubs and I dont tip taxi drivers unless they've been exceptional. As I understand it that behaviour woudl be looked down on in most of the US.

Not that it woudl likely make that huge a difference to the figures and it is optinal even if their are culturla differnce in how much they are epxected, but its somethign Ive not really considered before.

[Rigadon]

More significantly, there has to be a pretty strict restriction on citizenship in order for the system to work. .

In Norway or all of scanadanvia? The other Scandanvian countries are part of the EU and therefore allow unlimited migration from the rest of the EU - which might not include very poor countires but does include significanlty poorer countries like Greece and Portugal.

I think Sweden is one of only three countries (along with Ireland and the uK) to not impose a transitional period on new EU member Countries so there is now unlimited immigartion from Poland, Hunagry, Slovakia etc.

[NorthStar77]

In Norway or all of scanadanvia? The other Scandanvian countries are part of the EU and therefore allow unlimited migration from the rest of the EU - which might not include very poor countires but does include significanlty poorer countries like Greece and Portugal.

I think Sweden is one of only three countries (along with Ireland and the uK) to not impose a transitional period on new EU member Countries so there is now unlimited immigartion from Poland, Hunagry, Slovakia etc.

Same here. We are part of Schengen, and it's easier for people from the new EU-coutries to move to Norway, than to many old EU-countries.

Someone said Norway is not an immigrant country, but it is. It has been for 30 years(and it has been an immigration country before that too. In the 1860'ies, when most European countries had a foreign-born population of 0.2-0.3%, Norway had 2%). This is not a burden for the economy, because immigrants are more reluctant to work hard for little money, and they don't apply for as much social welfare as natives. Statistics Norway prooved this not so long ago.

Many of the North American liberals who worship the idea of the Scandinavian "cradle to grave" socialist state with free drugs, free sex, free everything don't realise how conservative those countries can be. For example: Pornography is censored in Norway and marijuana possession is punished with long jail terms in Sweden.
I've often been wondering why we are considered so liberal myself...it's partly a myth:okay:

[Küsel]

Pure jealousy :lol:

It shouldn't be called "Perspective" but "Perception"...

[Küsel]

American press was really killed on the 9/11 :(
It was indeed. I saw a documentary that was based on interviews on American journalists... it's not only propagandistic but a planned killing of press freedom what happened to the American mass media in the patriot act times :( :( :runaway:

[Petronius]

In Norway or all of scanadanvia? The other Scandanvian countries are part of the EU and therefore allow unlimited migration from the rest of the EU - which might not include very poor countires but does include significanlty poorer countries like Greece and Portugal.



do you really think a Portuguese man would need , or want, to immigrate to Sweden or Norway?? First of all they arent' significantly poorer. The difference in PPP is no longer that wide, since the 90s. So please, before using my country's name, revise your knowledge on it. The only trips I've been told the POrtuguewse do to Norway is to visit the fjords. Or Codfish exports.

[Petronius]

As much as I thikn this article feels biased and bitter, (it actually seems like the author is trying to sell Americans their own way of life (?) ) , I do think Europe is losing a lot of Purchase Power. Strong euro, economic stagnation, etc. The Norwegians are no exception, as sometimes they seem to want to be.

[Grollo]

Yet more neo-con propoganda. Maybe we should invade Scandinavia to free the poor idiots who live there from the evils of socialism and high taxes?

United Nations Human Development Report 2004

HUMAN DEVELOPMENT INDEX:
1. Norway
2. Sweden
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Netherlands
6. Belgium
7. Iceland
8. United Sates
9. Japan
10. Ireland

HUMAN POVERTY INDEX FOR HIGH INCOME OECD COUNTRIES:
1 Sweden 6.5%
2 Norway 7.1%
3 Netherlands 8.2%
4 Finland 8.4%
5 Denmark 9.1%
6 Germany 10.3%
7 Luxembourg 10.5%
8 France 10.8%
9 Spain 11.00%
10 Japan 11.1%
11 Italy 11.6%
12 Canada 12.2%
13 Belgium 12.4%
14 Australia 12.9%
15 United Kingdom 14.8%
16 Ireland 15.3%
17 United Sates 15.8%

[rocky]

^grollo summed it well. I wish france was like scandinavia

[Rigadon]

d First of all they arent' significantly poorer. The difference in PPP is no longer that wide, since the 90s.


The difference is hopefully closer and there's no doubt Portugal has taken great strides forward since the 90s but it IS significantly poorer than Norway. Most countries are.

Even in PPP terms Norwys GDP per head is over double Portugal's.

[Petronius]

The difference is hopefully closer and there's no doubt Portugal has taken great strides forward since the 90s but it IS significantly poorer than Norway. Most countries are.

Even in PPP terms Norwys GDP per head is over double Portugal's.

I know, Norway still isn't attractive.. I just didn't like the fact that he had to use Portugal' name. People often seem to, forgetting that it is no longer a poor country. People eem to associate POrtugal with poverty, there are so many countries poorer than Portugal!

[NorthStar77]

^I agree. I'm pretty confident there are alot more people migrating from Norway to Portugal (but especially Spain), than the other way.

It's different with people from the new EU countries however. Many of them, especially Poles, are used to our climate. Wich is one of the reasons they are the biggest immigrant group now.

[Petronius]

^I agree. I'm pretty confident there are alot more people migrating from Norway to Portugal (but especially Spain), than the other way.

It's different with people from the new EU countries however. Many of them, especially Poles, are used to our climate. Wich is one of the reasons they are the biggest immigrant group now.

I still admire Norway and the rest of Scandinavia's achievements in Social Welfare, but not just! You seem to be leading nations in everything you do! You only lose points with your weather ;) And thanks for the cod, by the way!!

[Küsel]

I don't know - There are a lot of Portuguese also in Switzerland, one of the biggest group of foreigners.

If you want to hear it or not, but before joining the EU Portugal was a developping country, especially in the the 50s to 70s and a lot emigrated to center and northern Europe to work there especially on construction sites and in hotels (a lot changed but it is still a "poor" country for European "standards"). And a lot of them stayed and still emigrate. Here for example you should know portuguese if you work in construction. Also a high percentage of maids in hotels are Portuguese. The farms look more for Eastern Europeans now, they are "cheeper".

So why should it be different in Norway - I personally met several Lusitanians there. I don't say that Portugal is still a very poor country, but the disparities are still quite big!

[NorthStar77]

Even so, there are only 718 people from Portugal living in Norway, fewer than from most countries in Europe. http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/02/01/10/innvbef_en/tab-2004-05-26-12-en.html. In 2004, 92 Portugese moved to Norway, while 48 Norwegians moved to Portugal. Hmm, okay, so we have some immigration from Portugal;)
immigration:http://www.ssb.no/emner/02/02/20/innvutv/tab-2005-03-31-07.html
migration:http://www.ssb.no/emner/02/02/20/innvutv/tab-2005-03-31-08.html

I only know one Portugese myself. He moved here over 30 years ago, but have now moved back to Portugal for a period, together with his Norwegian son:)

And thanks for the cod, by the way!!

No problem, I don't want it!;) Quite funny how it was the Portugese that became so fond it.

[chiccoplease]

I partly agree with the article even though it seems exaggerated. Scandinavia certainly doesn't *look* rich. But neither does the US.

[Petronius]

Even so, there are only 718 people from Portugal living in Norway, fewer than from most countries in Europe. http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/02/01/10/innvbef_en/tab-2004-05-26-12-en.html. In 2004, 92 Portugese moved to Norway, while 48 Norwegians moved to Portugal. Hmm, okay, so we have some immigration from Portugal;)
immigration:http://www.ssb.no/emner/02/02/20/innvutv/tab-2005-03-31-07.html
migration:http://www.ssb.no/emner/02/02/20/innvutv/tab-2005-03-31-08.html

I only know one Portugese myself. He moved here over 30 years ago, but have now moved back to Portugal for a period, together with his Norwegian son:)



No problem, I don't want it!;) Quite funny how it was the Portugese that became so fond it.

According to INE(portuguese Statistics Bureau) data, there are 1317 Suedes living in Portugal officially, and 572 Finns. No data for Norwegians.. :(


It's historical, we used to go fish it ourselves over there before the EU.

[Petronius]

Even so, there are only 718 people from Portugal living in Norway, fewer than from most countries in Europe. http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/02/01/10/innvbef_en/tab-2004-05-26-12-en.html. In 2004, 92 Portugese moved to Norway, while 48 Norwegians moved to Portugal. Hmm, okay, so we have some immigration from Portugal;)
immigration:http://www.ssb.no/emner/02/02/20/innvutv/tab-2005-03-31-07.html
migration:http://www.ssb.no/emner/02/02/20/innvutv/tab-2005-03-31-08.html

I only know one Portugese myself. He moved here over 30 years ago, but have now moved back to Portugal for a period, together with his Norwegian son:)



No problem, I don't want it!;) Quite funny how it was the Portugese that became so fond it.

According to INE(portuguese Statistics Bureau) data, there are 1317 Suedes living in Portugal officially, 841 Danes, and 572 Finns. No data for Norwegians.. :(


It's historical, we used to go fish it ourselves over there before the EU.

[Petronius]

I don't know - There are a lot of Portuguese also in Switzerland, one of the biggest group of foreigners.

and?




If you want to hear it or not, but before joining the EU Portugal was a developping country, especially in the the 50s to 70s and a lot emigrated to center and northern Europe to work there especially on construction sites and in hotels (a lot changed but it is still a "poor" country for European "standards").

no it isn't. most of what you're saying is not true. I'm not surprised though, since that's got to be the image most Swiss will have on Portugal, due to the immigration. I suggest you come and see Portugal, I'm sure your opinion will change. I met a lot of people who changed their opinion like that. Switzerland was also a developping country in the 19th century, so what?

And a lot of them stayed and still emigrate.

Portugal is a country of IMMIGRATION. 2000 Portuguese people left the country in 2004 , and some 20.000 saw their situation legalised as foreigners residing in Portugal

Here for example you should know portuguese if you work in construction. Also a high percentage of maids in hotels are Portuguese. The farms look more for Eastern Europeans now, they are "cheeper".

so what, a lot of them give their nationality to their kids. i personally don't know of anyone who may be interested in moving to Swilzerland. Maybe in the more rural areas. But the more urban Portuguese isn't really interested in Switzerland.




So why should it be different in Norway - I personally met several Lusitanians there. I don't say that Portugal is still a very poor country, but the disparities are still quite big!
well as we can see, it isn't. Can you prove your statement about the disparities?? Or is it just in your head?

[eusebius]

The number of Portuguese immigrant workers proves any point instantly.

</how can you be so stupid to deny decades of welfare support from amongst others the Netherlands :you silly twat: :hammer you all the way back into your recipient cave/>

[Petronius]

The number of Portuguese immigrant workers proves any point instantly.

</how can you be so stupid to deny decades of welfare support from amongst others the Netherlands :you silly twat: :hammer you all the way back into your recipient cave/>

what do you mean?

[1st Division Marine]

yes Scandinavia wealthy very wealthy if that.

[Diboto]

Scandinavia is very wealthy as a whole, even if there are not as many millionaires or billionaires as in countries like UK, USA or Japan or whichever applies to the case.

Wealth should also be associated with high standards of living for the entire population, not just very high for some, and "ok" for most.

[HirakataShi]

Yet more neo-con propoganda. Maybe we should invade Scandinavia to free the poor idiots who live there from the evils of socialism and high taxes?

United Nations Human Development Report 2004

HUMAN DEVELOPMENT INDEX:
1. Norway
2. Sweden
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Netherlands
6. Belgium
7. Iceland
8. United Sates
9. Japan
10. Ireland

HUMAN POVERTY INDEX FOR HIGH INCOME OECD COUNTRIES:
1 Sweden 6.5%
2 Norway 7.1%
3 Netherlands 8.2%
4 Finland 8.4%
5 Denmark 9.1%
6 Germany 10.3%
7 Luxembourg 10.5%
8 France 10.8%
9 Spain 11.00%
10 Japan 11.1%
11 Italy 11.6%
12 Canada 12.2%
13 Belgium 12.4%
14 Australia 12.9%
15 United Kingdom 14.8%
16 Ireland 15.3%
17 United Sates 15.8%


Just a side note: The difference between the number 1 country and number 10 country on the UN HDI is less than 0.01. The "dollar" level that is used by governments to determine poverty in different countries is not the same. And ALL governments set "dollar" levels to determine poverty WAY to low.

[HirakataShi]

The gini coefficient for Nordic countries is very low, compared to Anglo-American countries. If Norway or Sweden have an average income of like 35,000 Euros for example, the majority of people earn around that level. If Canada or the USA or Australia or the UK have an average income of USD35,000 on the other hand, this says absolutely nothing since 60% of the population might be earning less or maybe only 40% is earning less. We have absolutely no way of knowing without seeking additional info due to the higher gini coefficient.

[Küsel]

@Pedrocid: don't get too mad about the posts! I know Portuguese here, I was in Portugal, I know immigrants to Portugal and I know that Switzerland only became a wealthy country in the 1880s. That's not the point and it was not meant to put your country down. But there are facts that have to be accepted and you can't change with patriotism (I have the same problem with my country, believe me). Lisboa and Porto are nowadays modern and quite wealthy cities and no one would deny that. But I only was talking about the past and the immigration to my country and these are facts, if you like it or not - and have nothing to do with the country nowadays!

[Petronius]

@Pedrocid: don't get too mad about the posts! I know Portuguese here, I was in Portugal, I know immigrants to Portugal and I know that Switzerland only became a wealthy country in the 1880s. That's not the point and it was not meant to put your country down. But there are facts that have to be accepted and you can't change with patriotism (I have the same problem with my country, believe me). Lisboa and Porto are nowadays modern and quite wealthy cities and no one would deny that. But I only was talking about the past and the immigration to my country and these are facts, if you like it or not - and have nothing to do with the country nowadays!

I didn't say there weren't. I admire and thank Swilzerland for welcoming all these citizens from Portugal. But we tend to build stereotypes on nationalities. We tend to regard citizens from a certain nationality, especially if they constitute an immigrant community,in all the aspects that are more "mediatised" and easy "catchs".. common grounds.. . You think of POrtuguese people as conciérges and builders because that's an easy image to retain. Certainly there are Portuguese immigrants in Switzerland with other jobs, or even Portuguese students, or etc.. (I studied there for a week for instance). Some Portuguese will do the same with Brazilians (Prostitutes and Transvestites) or Ukranians (drug dealers, builders, mafia) which would be extremely unfair! It's just what the television and press try to tell us because it's easier to sell!! Don't yo uthink?
Portugal isn't a country of emigration any more really... Just to give you a clue, last year , the immigrant population in Portugal increased by 7% . It now constitutes roughly 5% of the population, and 12% of "active" workers. I know it's still low compared to Swiltzerland, but still quite impressive for a country that 30 years ago saw 1/5th of its population emigrating to other nations...

[AcesHigh]

I think your 'perspective' is just as inaccurate as the New York Times article! No country in the world with more crime than the USA, really???? How about Iraq, Somalia or Nigeria??

You are comparing the richest country in the world to Iraq, Somalia and Nigeria??? Compare its violence level with other developed countries!


If education in the US is so terrible why do they have a higher proportion of people with university degrees than virtually anywhere else and why do people from all over the world send their kids to Harvard, Yale etc?

I guess people are not talking about university education, but about basic education.


Most of the US population live in middle class Suburbia which is hardly 'really bad conditions' even it isn't exactly exciting ;)

very true. On the other hand you have to drive an infinity to your work place... one of the reasons US is the largest polluter in the world.


Healthcare in the USis also very good (but expensive) for those who can get it. It's just bad that large numbers of the population don't have access to it.

healthcare ANYWHERE in the world is very good for people who can pay for it. We have awesome hospitals in Brasil for people who can pay for them. What really matter is healthcare for who cant pay for it!!! It is just ridiculous that in US there is no PUBLIC healthcare.

[AcesHigh]

I don't know - There are a lot of Portuguese also in Switzerland, one of the biggest group of foreigners.

If you want to hear it or not, but before joining the EU Portugal was a developping country, especially in the the 50s to 70s and a lot emigrated to center and northern Europe to work there especially on construction sites and in hotels (a lot changed but it is still a "poor" country for European "standards"). And a lot of them stayed and still emigrate. Here for example you should know portuguese if you work in construction. Also a high percentage of maids in hotels are Portuguese. The farms look more for Eastern Europeans now, they are "cheeper".

So why should it be different in Norway - I personally met several Lusitanians there. I don't say that Portugal is still a very poor country, but the disparities are still quite big!


things always change. The nordic countries were poor before the 20th century. Portugal was powerful in the 16th century.

[LooselogInThePeg]

This article doesn't look like propaganda so much as some sort of personal rant to me. Having said that though, it does bring up some interesting points concerning the socialist state of mind. Seems to me that based on the postings in this thread there are as many misconceptions about the US as there are perceived misconceptions about Europe.

[earthJoker]

I've often been wondering why we are considered so liberal myself...it's partly a myth:okay:
Americans and European don't understand the same thing under liberal!

[Küsel]

And European social parties would be banned in the US :) Kerry which has been considered as liberal and even half communist in the US (what a joke) whouldn't even be considered "left" here. The American and European political systems and values are not compareable.

[Justadude]

It is just ridiculous that in US there is no PUBLIC healthcare.

There is public healthcare in the US, just not universalized public healthcare.

[earthJoker]

And European social parties would be banned in the US :) Kerry which has been considered as liberal and even half communist in the US (what a joke) whouldn't even be considered "left" here. The American and European political systems and values are not compareable.
Well that's not what I meant. The therm liberal doesn't mean the same, it's not a matter of perspective but of definition.

[Küsel]

I think it's a misunderstanding - I started the sentence with AND, because I agreed with you (I know that there are totally different definitions abou "liberal") and just wanted to give a further perspective. Sorry, that was not clear as it seems. The first time I was in the US I also was very confused by the term liberal ;)

[Ringil]

i can't complaine :) .......

[earthJoker]

Sorry, that was not clear as it seems. The first time I was in the US I also was very confused by the term liberal ;)
Americans tend to redifine words (like liberal and football) ;)

[Lee]

Even when PPP has been taken into account Norway comes out as one of the richest countries in the world.


Of course, but what is a lot of money good for if it cannot buy as much?

[Lee]

healthcare ANYWHERE in the world is very good for people who can pay for it. We have awesome hospitals in Brasil for people who can pay for them. What really matter is healthcare for who cant pay for it!!! It is just ridiculous that in US there is no PUBLIC healthcare.

The US does have public healthcare, actually. The Gov't spends a TON of money in programs like Medicaid and many other programs giving free healthcare (in most cases) to the most needy people.

[Jonesy55]

Of course, but what is a lot of money good for if it cannot buy as much?

Er, in case you hadn't noticed PPP means taking into account the price levels in each country. I could have equally said 'Even when prices have been taken into account Norway comes out as one of the richest countries in the world.'

[Jonesy55]

The US does have public healthcare, actually. The Gov't spends a TON of money in programs like Medicaid and many other programs giving free healthcare (in most cases) to the most needy people.

So why does the USA still have lower life expectancy, higher chance of dying before the age of 60 and higher infant mortality than virtually any other developed country?

[HirakataShi]

So why does the USA still have lower life expectancy, higher chance of dying before the age of 60 and higher infant mortality than virtually any other developed country?

Unhealthy lifestyles. The USA has a MUCH higher rate of obesity than anywhere else on this planet. There are many health complications associated with obesity. The lower life expectancy in the USA is a reflection of Americans' less healthy lifestyles.

[Jonesy55]

Unhealthy lifestyles. The USA has a MUCH higher rate of obesity than anywhere else on this planet. There are many health complications associated with obesity. The lower life expectancy in the USA is a reflection of Americans' less healthy lifestyles.

What about Infant mortality, that isn't to do with obesity surely? More likely the lack of access to healthcare by the poor.

[Justadude]

Unhealthy lifestyles. The USA has a MUCH higher rate of obesity than anywhere else on this planet.

Not true. The highest rate of obesity is in the Pacific. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1118529.htm

Australia's obesity rate is neck-and-neck with the United States, and probably higher: http://www.katelundy.com.au/obesity.htm

Atlantic Canadians have an obesity rate of 61%: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/9318/obese.html

Broad-based look at worldwide obesity via clips from many newspapers: http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/1961.cfm

Americans bear the stereotype of being fat, but the fact is that it's rapidly becoming a worldwide problem. Instant-gratification lifestyles are spreading around the globe, especially in post-industrial societies. Not to mention that Americans smoke and drink considerably less than their European and Asian counterparts, which are much higher factors in disease than obesity:

http://www.ias.org.uk/images/world-bank.gif
(Note that being underweight is a higher risk factor than obesity)

I see no reason to attribute the United States' healthcare problems strictly to unhealthy lifestyles.

So why does the USA still have lower life expectancy, higher chance of dying before the age of 60 and higher infant mortality than virtually any other developed country?

Surely it has something to do with the sheer instability of the American population. For every immigrant family that rises to the middle class and becomes healthier, two more families immigrate from somewhere else... usually third-world countries. And many of those immigrants have no access to public healthcare anyway. It seems pretty natural that after nearly two centuries of high immigration, the USA would be behind most other developed countries in that sort of statistic. The healthcare system is crap, but it's not clear to me that it's entirely its fault that we score so statistically low.

[_keen_]

All those tax, state protection and also unreasonable powerfull trade-unions have their price. People in north are not that smart, work-loving and honest - they are far from acomplishing socialistic utopia. Actuall proportion of salaries and prices is low (lower than in western europe) - that is true in this article.

[LtBk]

All those tax, state protection and also unreasonable powerfull trade-unions have their price. People in north are not that smart, work-loving and honest - they are far from acomplishing socialistic utopia. Actuall proportion of salaries and prices is low (lower than in western europe) - that is true in this article.

Are you talking about Scandinavia?

[Ubo]

Well let them be ''not as rich!'' Whats GDP worth when the common taxed Scandinavian has it a lot easier in life then the wealthy free of tax American? And from what I've seen and heard atleast, Scandinavian countries are pretty rich anyway.

[Ubo]

And the reason why the United States is pretty high in the Human Development Report is because the high value of purchasing strength in the list's criteria. But what it doesn't state is that there's a bigger inequality of wealth in the United States, and that your pretty much fucked up if you don't have any. The United States does have huge education and medical budgets, but hardly eveyone benefits and therefore the French and Scandinavian health systems are at the end of the day better. Another problem with the United States is government schools, they're pretty dodgy. This is a problem occuring in Britain aswell, its becoming far more difficult to come into a good university if you don't come from a private school. This problem is virtually a nonoccurrence in Scandinavia and the problem is less major in mainland Western Europe.

[scorpion]

well, there's several conversations happening in this thread, but i'd like to add one important often-overlooked measure here:

the United States, as a single country, has close to 280million people in it...

this alone skews in a chart not designed per capita, yes? and what of the significant differences between states in America too?

comparing Norwary or Sweden or Portugal to a 'state' within US seems more appropriate to me~~

:cool:

greetings from california :)

[Hviid]

Whats funny is the guy talks about people driving shitty cars in Scandinavia because they're poor ... LOL what he doesnt know is that gas-powered cars cost just as much as a house over here. A normal (new) car over here can cost up to $200,000. And you actually see A LOT of Scandinavians driving these kinds of cars (maybe not as much as Americans, but still a lot), so obviously Scandinavians must be a bit richer since they can afford these "expensive" cars...right? How many Americans do you see driving $100-$200,000 cars?
America is a great country .. but I dont think its any better or richer than any of the Scandinavian countries. It's also a MUCH bigger country and has a MUCH bigger population, so again, you cant really compare it with the Scandinavian countries.
It's a stupid article.

[gothicform]

humbug...

and by the way, driving old cars doesn't mean you're poor. Ingvar Kamprad, the founder of IKEA and the 6th richest man on earth, drives a very old Volvo and he doesn't like all the expensive shit you're are expected to buy when you're rich.

He drives his old Volvo in Switzerland not Sweden. But with all that money I think it is strange to drive old car or ride all over Switzerland with public transport. Ingvar Kamprad, the founder of IKEA live in Switzerland not in Sweden. Anywhere the most Scandinavians if they have a money enough for new cars will drive around new cars. N.Y.T. have a point least in something. Everything in Scandinavia are extremelly expensive doesn't matter if we speak about cars, houses/apartments, restaurants and etc. Yes, theirs earnings are biger than in rest of Europe but prices are much bigger than in rest of Europe.

The Kamprad family has lived in Switzerland since 1976 at Epalinges, in Upper Lausanne. Kamprad's three sons learned French, a language already spoken by Ingvar's wife, Margaretha. In keeping with his style, the founder of IKEA lives in a discreet home and drives an old Volvo. His wife presides over the Lausanne parish of the Swedish Church, where they get together with the many other Swedes who have settled in Switzerland. When not on business trips or gazing over the shores of Lake Geneva, the Kamprad family lead a happy life in Upper Lausanne.

Living in Switzerland allows this businessman to travel quickly throughout Europe and to enjoy an exceptional standard of living in the Lake Geneva Arc. And yet the head of IKEA still lives life at the same old pace. In reality, he is thrifty and waits until the end of the village market to take advantage of the best prices and travels by train in second class. The billionaire feels so safe in Switzerland that he rides public transportation to travel incognito throughout Switzerland.

[SuomiPoika]

This is the dumbest article i have ever read. I live in Finland and according to the information i have, the norwegians are living under the same living conditions as we do here in finland. Every time i watch an american film i notice that they have older mobile phones, tv:s, cd-players, dishwashers and so on. It´s not just the films that shows this, it´s a fact that americans often have things that we here in finland would have thrown out 20 years ago! And the cars? Americans are fammous to driving cars that looks like tractors (although they are cool). You can compare american cars with russian cars! Here in finland almost every car is new, it´s more like the americans drive "wrecks". It´s sad and almost every american i have spoken denies it (like many women in Iran say that they live a wonderful life, and all the stuff people are saying about the m beeing treated badly is false. But eveyone understands that they are lieing to themselves) but you can´t compare the us with scandinavia. Of course many people in the us are liveing a wealthy life but there is also many things wrong there. There are people the doesn´t exist in america, the americans are not counting the poor people so thats why the lists often shows that there are more people without jobs in Germany that in the us. And that the BNP per capita is so high is also wery confusing, if you would share the money equally in the us the standard of living would be vey good but the thing is the US is a very unfare country, so the BNP per capita is not what the lists are showing. The history and geography education is VERY bad in the us. My father was on a philosophy meeting in Norway a couple of weeks ago and he met an american professor who said he is very worried about his students because almost everyone couldn´t point out Paris on the map, and he said that this is happening in evey university in the us.
A friend of mine who lived in america said the you only got to learn american history so that´s why every american think it´s the best country in the world. I think you have hard to exept the fact that there is richer countries then the us and that your superpower status is fadeing away....

[_tictac_]

Whats funny is the guy talks about people driving shitty cars in Scandinavia because they're poor ... LOL what he doesnt know is that gas-powered cars cost just as much as a house over here. A normal (new) car over here can cost up to $200,000. And you actually see A LOT of Scandinavians driving these kinds of cars (maybe not as much as Americans, but still a lot), so obviously Scandinavians must be a bit richer since they can afford these "expensive" cars...right? How many Americans do you see driving $100-$200,000 cars?
America is a great country .. but I dont think its any better or richer than any of the Scandinavian countries. It's also a MUCH bigger country and has a MUCH bigger population, so again, you cant really compare it with the Scandinavian countries.
It's a stupid article.

Hehe though a bit exaggerated, I get your point.
Denmark has the lowest average price on cars in the world, unfortunately, it also has the highest taxes on cars in the world. Ironic, isn't it.

That makes it the most expensive country in the world when buying a car.
Countries such as Sweden, Norway and Finland are much cheaper although they're not cheap either.

Typical average car in Denmark:

Model: Toyota Avensis Sedan 1.8 SOL
Price: 56,885.25 USD / 346,599.00 DKK

Lets put things into perspective.
In order to compare, the average car in US would have to be one of these:

Model: Porsche Boxster S 3.2
Price: 53,100.00 USD / 323,535.65 DKK

Model: Chevrolet Corvette Convertible LS2 6.0
Price: 52,245.00 USD / 318,326.18 DKK

Finally, lets compare the two and see the difference:

Model: Porsche Boxster S 3.2
Price (US): 53,100.00 USD / 323,535.65 DKK
Price (Denmark): 179,331.848 USD / 1,092,660.00 DKK

Conclusion: Denmark is over 3 times as expensive.


Source: www.chevrolet.com / www.porsche.com / www.porsche.dk / www.toyota.dk

[LtBk]

A friend of mine who lived in america said the you only got to learn american history so that´s why every american think it´s the best country in the world. I think you have hard to exept the fact that there is richer countries then the us and that your superpower status is fadeing away....

They do teach World and European History courses but nobody pays attentions or cares about it(same with American History). Sad but true.

[Hviid]

He drives his old Volvo in Switzerland not Sweden. But with all that money I think it is strange to drive old car or ride all over Switzerland with public transport. Ingvar Kamprad, the founder of IKEA live in Switzerland not in Sweden. Anywhere the most Scandinavians if they have a money enough for new cars will drive around new cars. N.Y.T. have a point least in something. Everything in Scandinavia are extremelly expensive doesn't matter if we speak about cars, houses/apartments, restaurants and etc. Yes, theirs earnings are biger than in rest of Europe but prices are much bigger than in rest of Europe.
You might think its expensive, but it really isnt when compared to how much Scandinavians earn on an average year. Like you said, our earnings are bigger, so we can afford to buy things that are more expensive. Also, there are a lot of things that ARENT more expensive in Scandinavia than in, for example, the US. In Denmark, I know electronics (cellphones,TVs,etc) are cheaper, house prices outside Copenhagen is pretty much the same. The only thing that really is a lot more expensive is cars... I cant think of anything else... When I was in Copenhagen last year, things really werent that expensive, atleast not compared to prices here in Toronto. Of course you can find bars that charge $20 per beer, just like you can find bars that charge $6 per beer. You can find pizza places that charge $50 for a small pizza, and a pizza place that charges $10 for a small pizza. The guy in this article is just taking the most expensive prices he can find in Norway, and comparing them with the cheapest in the US.

[Hviid]

They do teach World and European History courses but nobody pays attentions or cares about it(same with American History). Sad but true.
They only teach World & European history if you choose to take the course. It's not something that you have to learn in your normal history course, which is what I believe he was talking about...

[LtBk]

They only teach World & European history if you choose to take the course. It's not something that you have to learn in your normal history course, which is what I believe he was talking about...

Well, in my school, you must take the World History course for a credit in sophomore year. And it's one of most failed courses by students in my school.

[Ringil]

yeah he live in Switzerland so what. Do you have to have a porsche if you're rich is it a crime to not have one? Ingvar is no brat he's a son of a farmer. most swedes haven't been born rich. They've become rich. It's a diffirent way of life here, and thank god for that. Money is far from everything

why dont everybody got big american cars? maybe because people dont like'em. We dont spend our money on cars, we spend them on vaccations and small red wooden houses by a nice lake :D

[_tictac_]

why dont everybody got big american cars? maybe because people dont like'em. We dont spend our money on cars, we spend them on vaccations and small red wooden houses by a nice lake :D

LOL! Amen to that, Ringil ;)

[Ubo]

American car are staggeringly cheap in Europe, so it has nothing to do with people not being able to buy them. The maintaining cost are high ofcourse, not just petrol but the fact that they're shitty and break down all the time so people would be stupid not to buy better European and Japanese cars. You see far better cars on average on the roads of major European countries, however they do tend to be more average in Scandinavia.

[conorworld]

Looking at the article written, one can take this as an argument over mentality.

The United States and Western Europe, including Norway are very differet when one considers their mentality and views on the way in wish they want to live. Its funny to see Americans getting frustrated about Europeans like the writer of this article.

Europe thinks in a completely different way and its wants and desires are also different. Looking at France during the week with the referendum on the Constitution, it brought up this argument very well.

Americans believe in working as hard as possible, making as much money as possible and the pursuit of this goal. It really is a money, money , money situation. Its the belief that money is the means to a better life. You have lower taxes so you can buy the things you want-that new car, that holiday, that pizza, that health care plan etc. Europeans see things in a different light. They see that money is not the be all and end all. They see the need for a necessary balance to working hard and living well.

The writer makes the point that people in Norway on a PPP basis arenot as well off as other nations. Maybe so. However, quality of life is not only based around PPP. There are various different things which one can factor in to consider quality of life-holiday time, benefits, rights, education etc. income is a major part but not everything.

The writer makes the point about Norwegians driving old cars and how bad that is. On the contrary, maybe Norwegians are nt consumed by the ravaging need to buy new things all the time. Maybe they dont see the necessity of throwing away something that still works. In this case I admire the Norwegians. This is a simple case of decent conservation. There is a reason and a necessity for this in todays world and ts a shame that Americans dont see that. Their rejection of the Kyoto Protocol (you can argue about that at another time but at least its a step in the right direction and at least one step, America is going the other way) and other wanton disregard for the scarcity of resources is a shame and something which will come to bite them in the ass in future but unfortunately I think we will ALL suffer for that.

Back to the point about the wealth of nations as mentioned here. The wealth of a nation, whether by GDP, PPP etc is one thing but it does not take into account how a person feels. Europeans have a better quality of living and a better balance between work and play than America. We may not make as much as Americans but we live a healthier and better life. We have more time to relax, cook our dinners (and not as reliant on quick fix ready made dinners etc), more holidays, mre time for our children, more time for the simple pleasures in life.

It is a well known fact that Europeans on an hour by hour basis are more productive than Americans, the only difference is that we work less hours. This extra time we have is a factor in our betterment in productivity.

If you ask Europeans whether they prefer paying higher taxes for free healthcare etc or go the American way they will probably keep their own. OK, we might have to wait a while to get treatment, people might die becuase of this but it is nothing compared to the horrendous state in America where people cannot afford operations and die because of that. At least in many respects we have the option and not forced to abstain from vital medical operations on a point of cost or income. That is a crime.

Norway has high taxes but they have been incredibly clever in creating that Oil Fund for future generations. In todays day and age it is a necessity. My country, Ireland is doing the same, however we are not exactly flushed with oil mney we have made the provision of a certain amount (I think .9% of GDP or something around that every year) to go into out National Pension Fund for future problems. Well done to Norway for their consideration for that fact.

Now the Americans might argue with me about some points and I would be glad to take them on on this post but the foundations of all this lie back with mentality. Yes life is more expensive in Norway, some facilities are slightly inadequate but Id say in the long term they would prefer what they have to what Americans have or lack in some respects (such as universal health care).

Oh, and i am just wondering, if that reporter had brought his grandmother to a hospital in America and she had not health care plan, I wonder how much it would cost?

[scorpion]

Again, all that said, America as a country has 280 million people...


So again, stereotypes of "America" are often only descriptive of a portion of this continental-sized nation~~


Greetings from a very different portion of the stereotyped-US :)

[SuomiPoika]

great(and long) post conorworld :) The americans goal is to make as much money as possible, while the europeans think more about what you should do with your life. In western europe we have better living conditions than in america partly because in europe you often care about diffrent persons but in america the comapies and money are the most important. Now, when the EU is becoming a "superpower" things here will probably become more like in america, since the EU needs a strong economy and that´s pity. I feel i belong to Europe and that we europeans should have a community like the EU, but i do not want another USA on this side of the Atlantic...

[scorpion]

i support your noble and self-righteous goals SuomiPoika, i do, i really do :)

that said, please grasp my message:


you and many others seem to highly misunderstand just how large and diverse the US is~~

maybe its better to think of the US and its 50 different states as just another continent of EU with its 50-some-odd different nations
:grouphug:

[schreiwalker]

I agree, he did seem bitter about something. I think he's just some snobby new yorker who thinks anything not-new york style is worthless. so please don't stereotype the whole US for what the new york times has to say.

I liked the sound of norway from it actually, even if he didn't. it seems like a place where people just get "it". it being that we don't have to get new stuff every six months to be having a good life. some people here (and everywhere) just can't figure this out.