Midwest states with 2 flagship state univ's

[edsg25]

This is a question for people in midwestern states with two flagship state universities. Are they equals?

Unsually the original one goes under the name Univ of _____. Traditionally it has had the most prestige, has been heavily into the liberal arts and is home to the state's medical and law schools.

The second one, normally named _____ State University, is often a landgrant institution, had a more equalitarian mission, specialized in fields like agriculture and technology, but has changed radically int he last 50 years to meet the needs of a changing society. Far more than in the past, the mission of the two flagships has become more and more alike; their differences far more muted.

The land-grants were once thought of in a lesser light than the original state universities, but they certainly have elevated their status to now being viewed by many as one of two major flagships.


***********************************************************

I'm interested in folks in the various states below have to say about their state's flagships.

In Kansas: do people see KU and K-State as equals, or does Lawrence dominate? How much has K-State's football success affected the school academically due to its high visibility? Is Witchita and schools like it seen a lot differently?

In Oklahoma: how much is OSU viewed as an equal flagship with OU? Does OU benefit from being in the OkC area? Does OSU have a higher profile in Tulsa due to proximity.

In Iowa: How do you see Iowa and Iowa State....are they joint flagships with Northern Iowa seen as a school on another level? I went to the Univ of Iowa for a year (years ago) and at that time, Iowa dominated the state. The impression I get from inside and outside of Iowa is that UI and ISU are very much peer institutions, very similiar in size and scope and academic respect.

In Indiana: Both IU and Purdue have always had major respect. Purdue began as a university and not a college. And academically their rankings have never shown much difference. I can't imagine IU and Purdue not being viewed as flagships and in a different ball park from Ball and Ind St.

In Michigan: Michigan is unique, in a sense. U-M is an overpowering institutions, a hallmark in American public education with an aura few schools can match. In that sense, it must be tough to be MSU, an outstanding institution that has to battle being in-states with the likes of Ann Arbor. That said, MSU is bigger, tends to be more Michigan oriented in enrollment and mission. No midwestern states has two schools of this size, enormous (and prominent) institutions. How does Michigan view U-M and MSU as equal flagships? Is the pecking order in Michigan actually U-M, MSU, Wayne, others? Does MSU hold its own with U-M despite the magic of A2? Are EMU, CMU, and WMU very much in the shaddow of U-M and MSU?

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Some questions for states with one flagship:

In Ohio: OSU is the flagship but Ohio, the oldest of midwestern states, has something special you don't find in other midwestern states: quality second tier state universities that have outstanding reputations and can come up looking like public ivies. How do Ohioans look at such institutions as Miami (in particular) and Ohio U in relationship with OSU? Are BG and Kent looked at in the same light that Miami is? My sense is that they are not.

In Illinois: UIUC is unquestionably the powerhouse in my state. Nobody competes with it. I'd say the second most academically visual institution would be UIC. I would expect that UIC will close the gap with UIUC in the coming years, perhaps in a similiar way that UCLA did with Cal. How do fellow Illinoisians view the pecking order of our state u's? Will NIU benefit from high tech growth on I-88 and being drawn into the Chicago area? How about ISU and SIU?

In Wisconsin: UW-Madison is unchallenged and all state u's are in the UW System. After UW-Madison, is UWM viewed as the second most prominent state university and does it, like Madison, have any preceived edge over other UW's.

In Minnesota: U of M-Twin Cities dominates like nowhere else. I can't imagine any comparison with other state universities (within and outside the U of M system) to it.

In Missouri: Mizzou is the only flagship. It seems like the other campuses in the Univ of Mo system are in its shaddow. Missourians, seems to me that the SWS name change to Mo St U will not really be a challenge to Columbia...right?

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I appreciate any feedback you folks can give in any (and all) of these states. Thanks.

[cwilson758]

well, despite what many Purdue fans and alums might say, it is obvious that IU gets the most "coverage." Only around Lafayette does Purdue really take center-stage. NOW, this does not mean that IU is a better institution, but, because of all the national titles in basketball and other spotrs programs, IU is covered more by the media. A classic example of sports getting more credit than what really matters, the students.

[Lmichigan]

Well for Michigan and Michigan State the two are so different. Michigan has garnered a reputation for being the better of the two. But, as has been said many times before, both specialize in different things. For instance, if you're going in land-use Urban Planning, MSU would be your choice. If you're going into architecture UofM would be your choice.

One in integrated and is the center of a larger city. One is a suburban-like campus totally separate from it's smaller city. They really are very different in their focuses. And while UofM is known for attracting out-of-state MSU has the biggest study abroad programs in the country, and a large international population.

I know I'm babbling, but at least in Michigan I think that both compete very well on their own, and their is room enough for both universities.

[edsg25]

well, despite what many Purdue fans and alums might say, it is obvious that IU gets the most "coverage." Only around Lafayette does Purdue really take center-stage. NOW, this does not mean that IU is a better institution, but, because of all the national titles in basketball and other spotrs programs, IU is covered more by the media. A classic example of sports getting more credit than what really matters, the students.

always an interesting phenomeninum when you consider in revenue sports, Purdue runs rings around Indiana. Purdue totally dominates in football and in basketball, it is right around or at the top of B10 records over the years. Further, unlike the typical history of dual flagships, it was Purdue, not IU, that was a founding member of the B10.

I do believe on an academic basis, Purdue starting life as a university, not a college, evened the playing field in Indiana. Very few (if any) other land-grant institution so started, other than ones (like Champaign, Madison, etc., that became their states sole flagships). Thus Purdue was a much more major institution at the earlier part of the 20th century, than MSU, which still hadn't gone through its metamorphosis from MAC to MSC to MSU.

[cwilson758]

edsg25-

Purdue is certianly a better football team, BUT not in terms of basketball. As for academics, each school seems to speacialize in differentsubjects, so that info could be interepreted a hundered different ways.

[airmale007]

I like your analysis, edsg...

Most downstate Illinoisans would certainly agree in saying that UIUC is the state's powerhouse school, but many of us also (perhaps mistakenly) lump all the Chicago universities together; they are all close to each other and collectively offer an incredibly diverse number of courses, as well as being highly rated and acclaimed in most cases (Northwestern, UIC, etc.).

Oddly enough, when I ask my fellow high school juniors what Illinois school they would most like to attend, the answer is frequently UIC or Northwestern, sometimes Roosevelt, or others. The attitude I find among the more...intellectual members of my class tend to view more opportunities for them at schools in Chicago, and rightly so; many of us (myself included) love the city we live in, but fully intend to move to Chicago to live, and being able to go to a world-class school there is a benefit.

[LouisvilleJake]

My views of Indiana as a Boilermaker...

I was born in California, but my family has always been from southern Indiana, directly en face de downtown Louisville in a suburb called Clarksville. When I was growing up I even had Indiana Hoosier clothes I would wear to school (so stupid I was as a child, lol) When we moved to Indiana my Freshman year of high school I noticed NOTHING but Indiana Hoosiers gear. I basically never even knew Purdue existed in my own state. It wasn't until I started my college search did I even realize Purdue was located in my state and how big it was. I made trips to see both schools before I decided on which to attend. I eventually broke family tradition and went to Purdue. Even in Indianapolis, there is a serious Indiana bias. Southern Indiana is completely IU territory. Northern Indiana is, in my opinion, more split, with a tilt toward IU even still.

Now, having saidthat, IU is in serious trouble in our state. Purdue seems to be growing at a rate far surpassing that of Indiana. We have raced past IU in academic standing, and our sports are just as well known now as theirs. Purdue seems to be racing forward, and the image of IU is static. I have heard the same thing from Purdue faculty to whom I am close, and my friends at Indiana University. Indiana is a great institution, but Purdue is equally as great and getting better every year. Purdue is under going the most massive building spree in it's history, it is in the middle of the largest fund raising drive in Indiana history, and one of the largest in Big 10 history, and we are on target to surpass our goal ahead of schedule.

Indiana Universoty gets all the glory in our state, but Purdue is the engine thatcould that has blown pastthe Hoosiers and is building a name for itself outside of Indiana...as my advisor told me one day, Go to IU if you want to live in Indiana, go to Purdue if you want to get out of this box.

[Coldwake]

In Wisconsin: UW-Madison is unchallenged and all state u's are in the UW System. After UW-Madison, is UWM viewed as the second most prominent state university and does it, like Madison, have any preceived edge over other UW's.



:laugh:

haha... no.

UWM might be the only other D1 school in the UW system but education wise it doesn't stack up well against about half a dozen of the D2 and D3 UW schools. That has really been apparent to me in my job search. Talking with recruiters who recruit out of the UW system, and other schools in Wisconsin, really don't seem to think as highly of UWM as it does for other UW's.

oh wait! here's a P.S.! I think ANY UW school is a good place to be, even UWM. well... maybe not parkside... :wave:

[ColDayMan]

In Ohio: OSU is the flagship but Ohio, the oldest of midwestern states, has something special you don't find in other midwestern states: quality second tier state universities that have outstanding reputations and can come up looking like public ivies. How do Ohioans look at such institutions as Miami (in particular) and Ohio U in relationship with OSU? Are BG and Kent looked at in the same light that Miami is? My sense is that they are not.

OSU is the clear winner in the flagship department but, as you said, Ohio has a bizzillion first-tier schools (maybe not flagships but certainly first tiered, even if you put them in other states) like Ohio, Bowling Green, Kent, U of Cincinnati, Miami, U of Toledo, U of Dayton, Ohio Northern, Shawnee State, Cleveland State, Wright State, Xavier, etc. We view each school seperately (Ohio is known for hippies/marijuana/parties; Miami is J Crew U...pretentious East Coast snobs; Bowling Green is party; Kent is party; blah blah). We look at all these schools as regional powers, or basically, equal throughout the state. Of course there are "exceptional" schools such as Case Western, Kenyon, Dennison, etc but we don't discuss those schools often (unless from that area).

My personal favorites (besides the school I attend...the flagship) are Dennison, Antioch, Kenyon, Central State/Wilberforce (first private HBCU in the country), and Marietta College (gorgeous).

[edsg25]

My views of Indiana as a Boilermaker...

I was born in California, but my family has always been from southern Indiana, directly en face de downtown Louisville in a suburb called Clarksville. When I was growing up I even had Indiana Hoosier clothes I would wear to school (so stupid I was as a child, lol) When we moved to Indiana my Freshman year of high school I noticed NOTHING but Indiana Hoosiers gear. I basically never even knew Purdue existed in my own state. It wasn't until I started my college search did I even realize Purdue was located in my state and how big it was. I made trips to see both schools before I decided on which to attend. I eventually broke family tradition and went to Purdue. Even in Indianapolis, there is a serious Indiana bias. Southern Indiana is completely IU territory. Northern Indiana is, in my opinion, more split, with a tilt toward IU even still.

Now, having saidthat, IU is in serious trouble in our state. Purdue seems to be growing at a rate far surpassing that of Indiana. We have raced past IU in academic standing, and our sports are just as well known now as theirs. Purdue seems to be racing forward, and the image of IU is static. I have heard the same thing from Purdue faculty to whom I am close, and my friends at Indiana University. Indiana is a great institution, but Purdue is equally as great and getting better every year. Purdue is under going the most massive building spree in it's history, it is in the middle of the largest fund raising drive in Indiana history, and one of the largest in Big 10 history, and we are on target to surpass our goal ahead of schedule.

Indiana Universoty gets all the glory in our state, but Purdue is the engine thatcould that has blown pastthe Hoosiers and is building a name for itself outside of Indiana...as my advisor told me one day, Go to IU if you want to live in Indiana, go to Purdue if you want to get out of this box.

I'd have to agree with a lot of this. Purdue definitely seems to be getting a slightly higher academic rating than IU in the USN&WR rankings. Purdue does come across as a serious academic institution, and incredibly strong in science, engineering, etc. Also, as beautiful as Bloomington is, the Lafayette area, midway between Indy and Chgo, is in much more of a power location within the state.

[CG5]

That's interesting Coldwake. UWM actually has a pretty great reputation in several areas. Depends on what you're going for. Outside of Mad Town the UW schools tend to be strong in different areas...ie Whitewater for Business, UWM for Film, Architecture, Nursing, etc.

I've heard UWM called the Bastard Child of the UW system. Hell, I don't like it, but I always thought that was a bit strong.

[TurkPBR]

:laugh:

haha... no.

UWM might be the only other D1 school in the UW system but education wise it doesn't stack up well against about half a dozen of the D2 and D3 UW schools. That has really been apparent to me in my job search. Talking with recruiters who recruit out of the UW system, and other schools in Wisconsin, really don't seem to think as highly of UWM as it does for other UW's.

oh wait! here's a P.S.! I think ANY UW school is a good place to be, even UWM. well... maybe not parkside... :wave:

Actually, UW-GB competes at the D1 level. If I'm not mistaken, UW-Parkside is the only UW school that competes at the D2 level. The other 9 WIAC schools compete at the D3 level. Each has their own staple program they are known for, and I know most are very competitive/difficult in terms of accepting freshman students. Not only are they strong in acedemics, but each is known for athletics as well. UW-La Crosse has won 5 straight national championships in track and field and 17 overall in 25 years. They also have the strongest football program in the system, long recognized as the toughest conference nationwide in D3. Platteville and Stevens Point are known for national championships in basketball. Good schools, but we'll forget to mention Superior.

[Badgers77]

Madison and Marquette are both highly ranked universities.

[NovaWolverine]

Does MSU have a higher percentage of intl. students? I know UM is 30 percent out of state or intl.

[NovaWolverine]

Actually I can believe that.

[edsg25]

Madison and Marquette are both highly ranked universities.

True, Badger, but my comparison when i started the thread was about public u's.

it's like in Illinois, there is no question that U of C and NU have a better reputation than U of I, but U of I is supreme among the state schools.

[cwilson758]

LouisvilleJake & Edsg -

I agree with both of you. Purdue is progressing while iU is just standing around and watching. As far as Lafayette and Bloomington...Lafayette has to be located in the most BORING part of Indiana. It doesn't get any flatter. Bloomington on the other hand, is in one of the best locations. However, Lafayette's economy is probably in the best shape shape outside of Indy. Bloomington, albeit doing well, seems to have factory closings every quarter.

[KM1410]

LouisvilleJake & Edsg -

I agree with both of you. Purdue is progressing while iU is just standing around and watching. As far as Lafayette and Bloomington...Lafayette has to be located in the most BORING part of Indiana. It doesn't get any flatter. Bloomington on the other hand, is in one of the best locations. However, Lafayette's economy is probably in the best shape shape outside of Indy. Bloomington, albeit doing well, seems to have factory closings every quarter.

Bloomington is actually doing pretty well now...

Inc. Magazine has named Bloomington one of the best business cities in America.

Bloomington tops all other Indiana cities, coming in at 19. Next is Indianapolis at 102 and Muncie, hard hit with job losses, places dead last on the list at number 274.

Inc. Magazine's main criteria for the ranking focuses on sustained job growth and the lower cost of doing business in smaller cities along with livability. In all cases, they say Bloomington fits the bill.

Business development is clearly evident. Some 1,200 jobs in the life sciences are expected within five years. Companies like Cook Pharmica, Baxter Pharmaceutical and Schulte Corporation are expanding here creating hundreds of jobs.


http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3238586&nav=0Ra7YuOZ

[Open Road]

Iowa and Iowa State.

Iowa has better medicine (actually on eo fht ebetter ones in the US.
Iowa State has better engineering and veterinary medicine. It's also larger.

I actually perfer the campus of Iowa... there's a river bisecting it, and the campustown / downtown area is larger than the one at ISU (as well as being far more pedestrian friendly).

[edsg25]

Iowa and Iowa State.

Iowa has better medicine (actually on eo fht ebetter ones in the US.
Iowa State has better engineering and veterinary medicine. It's also larger.

I actually perfer the campus of Iowa... there's a river bisecting it, and the campustown / downtown area is larger than the one at ISU (as well as being far more pedestrian friendly).

Iowa has the only med school; none at Iowa State.

Iowa is exceedingly strong in the liberal arts and has one of the best writing programs of any university in the nation. not only does the med school have an outstanding reputation; the law school does, as well.

In some respects, the two schools reflect geography in a way that exceeds what you have in many other states: Iowa is in the far eastern part of the state, looks eastward not only due to Big Ten membership, but the vast number of students that head out to Iowa City from Chicago and other places east of the Mississippi. Mid-state ISU looks westward as is pure Big XII.

I'm totally agreement about the campuses, Open Road): Iowa City and UI are a perfect fit. I love the way that the Pentacrest fits into downtown IC, the atmosphere of the ped mall), the hills on both sides of the river.

That said, I would say this: out of many of the states mentioned here, ISU has probably done as well as closing the gap between itself and Iowa in academic prestige and profile within state. In many ways, the two schools are looked at as equals. I would say the one major advantage that Iowa has over Iowa State today is athletic, not academically, realted: Hawkeye football is HUGE in comparison to Cyclone football.

[EastSider]

:laugh:

haha... no.

UWM might be the only other D1 school in the UW system but education wise it doesn't stack up well against about half a dozen of the D2 and D3 UW schools. That has really been apparent to me in my job search. Talking with recruiters who recruit out of the UW system, and other schools in Wisconsin, really don't seem to think as highly of UWM as it does for other UW's.

oh wait! here's a P.S.! I think ANY UW school is a good place to be, even UWM. well... maybe not parkside... :wave:

even UWM...?
You go to UWM for Architecture and Urban Planning (only program in the state, also nationally highly recogonized), Film (another nationally recognized program), Nursing, and Journalism and Mass Communication. Those programs can compete on National level. If you're not interested in those programs, you don't go to UWM. If you do, you're throwing away your money and time.

That's the difference between UWM and other schools in the system. You can get a better overall-all education by attending other UW-System schools in general, and you have more choices of programs that are quality. At UWM you can be in amazing programs, or crappy ones, there isn't a happy medium. Does that make sense? This is all pure opinion, but I don't think I'm that off.

[TheKansan]

In Kansas: do people see KU and K-State as equals, or does Lawrence dominate? How much has K-State's football success affected the school academically due to its high visibility? Is Witchita and schools like it seen a lot differently?


KU is definately the big dog from my perspective, though KSU is no slouch either, just KU is the college with the majority of the national attention. The fact that K-State does well in football probably helped them with their image. In Kansas the two colleges are definately equals, while Wichita is seen at a much lower level. It might just be that way because KU is so close to me here in Kansas City (I live 30 miles from Lawrence).

[edsg25]

It might just be that way because KU is so close to me here in Kansas City (I live 30 miles from Lawrence).

I agree; but truthfully Manhattan isn't all that far away from KC either.

[Indyman]

I think different parts of the state have a bias toward either Purdue or Indiana. My whole family raised me an Indiana person but the area where I live I would say is more on the Purdue side.

[southpasdena]

Hmmm...Eastsider, i think you are way off on your opinion for UWM. Any degree attained from this school is worth more than any other state U in Wisconsin becuase they simply are not known. Madison is internationally recognized, ranked as on of the worlds best by countries such as China, England etc etc. They have more recognized programs besides the ones you have listed, such as engineering and their entire business school which excels in every business major and being probably the best in the country for real estate. The science department is one of the best and has the most research opportunities in the state. And besides their academics, they have some of the countries best athletic departments, including track, fball, bball, swimming, golf etc.

[EastSider]

^I know I grew up there. When making comparisons throughout the UW-System, Madison is normally left out of discussion.

[cjfjapan]

I'd have to agree with a lot of this. Purdue definitely seems to be getting a slightly higher academic rating than IU in the USN&WR rankings. Purdue does come across as a serious academic institution, and incredibly strong in science, engineering, etc. Also, as beautiful as Bloomington is, the Lafayette area, midway between Indy and Chgo, is in much more of a power location within the state.

I think this perception is definitely true, but it is dependent on a seismic shift that has occurred in higher education in indiana (and nationwide) recently--namely, that universities are not just expected to graduate educated people, but they are supposed now to serve as business incubators for the state. Bloomington's focus on liberal arts, foreign languages and music will never be able to compete with the engineering capabilities in West Lafayette where job creation is concerned. This is why the latest investments in IU's infrastructure are nearly all in the sciences, esp. Simon Hall. If the boosterism Hoosier media and its "growth at any cost" politicians would expand their view of the role of higher education, IUB would not look nearly so bad. Universities should graduate educated human beings, not just scientists and capitalists.

[edsg25]

Hmmm...Eastsider, i think you are way off on your opinion for UWM. Any degree attained from this school is worth more than any other state U in Wisconsin becuase they simply are not known. Madison is internationally recognized, ranked as on of the worlds best by countries such as China, England etc etc. They have more recognized programs besides the ones you have listed, such as engineering and their entire business school which excels in every business major and being probably the best in the country for real estate. The science department is one of the best and has the most research opportunities in the state. And besides their academics, they have some of the countries best athletic departments, including track, fball, bball, swimming, golf etc.

Southpasadena, did you mean UW-Madison? UWM refers to UW-Milwaukee.

[Y-CityGuy]

The State of Ohio is in a league of it's own in regards to it's universities. There are 13 division 1 universities in the state and countless smaller colleges and universities. I agree with ColDayMan in that the colleges are very regional in influence. Ohio University (28,000 students), which is the oldest public university in the Midwest (1804) was slated early to be the flagship, but Ohio State, which was founded to be the state agriculture college, just had the better location being in the state capital and in a very large population center (Columbus). They grew to be very large (about 50,000) and added "THE" to the front of their name to make it official. There has always been a silent rivalry between the two OHIO's. TOSU even tried to sue OU for the use of the name OHIO in the athletic logo, but lost its case because OU has had the name for about 60 or so years longer.

[edsg25]

The State of Ohio is in a league of it's own in regards to it's universities. There are 13 division 1 universities in the state and countless smaller colleges and universities. I agree with ColDayMan in that the colleges are very regional in influence. Ohio University (28,000 students), which is the oldest public university in the Midwest (1804) was slated early to be the flagship, but Ohio State, which was founded to be the state agriculture college, just had the better location being in the state capital and in a very large population center (Columbus). They grew to be very large (about 50,000) and added "THE" to the front of their name to make it official. There has always been a silent rivalry between the two OHIO's. TOSU even tried to sue OU for the use of the name OHIO in the athletic logo, but lost its case because OU has had the name for about 60 or so years longer.

Y-City, from location (southern part of state) and age, it sure sounds like Ohio U. had a lot in common with IU, but unlike IU which became Indiana's flagship, Ohio U. couldn't make that title.

Thanks for sharing. I often wondered wy OSU became the flagship and was aware that other public schools in Ohio were older.

I can't think of any state whose flagship was so preceeded by other instiutions.

Kind of interesting how things worked out in naming flagships. In PA, Penn State has its name because of the private Univ. of Pennsylvania (Penn). Meanwhile, LSU, I believe, has its name since Tulane (or a predeccsor instiution) was once the Univ. of Louisiana.

[edsg25]

Y-city, would you agree with me that another unusual thing about the state of Ohio is that a non-flaship (Miami) has in many circles a better academic reputation and more of a sense of a prestige school than the state's flagship (OSU)?

[Fiddlerontheruf]

CG5: if you dont mind me asking, what did you get on your ACTs?

[Y-CityGuy]

Originally Posted By edsg25
Y-city, would you agree with me that another unusual thing about the state of Ohio is that a non-flaship (Miami) has in many circles a better academic reputation and more of a sense of a prestige school than the state's flagship(OSU)?

I don't think it is odd when you have a state that has so many universities. They have to separate themselves somehow. Miami separates itself from the rest by being very selective. OU is a lot like Miami, even the campuses are very similar (a lot of brick). I now have to wash my mouth out for saying nice things about Miami, I am an OU guy and they are our sworn enemies!! :D

...Also tOSU became the flagship because of its athletic reputation. Almost everyone in the state is a Buckeye fan even if they are affiliated with another institution. Although, Ohio States medical school/hospital is one of the best in the world.

[araman0]

LouisvilleJake & Edsg -

I agree with both of you. Purdue is progressing while iU is just standing around and watching. As far as Lafayette and Bloomington...Lafayette has to be located in the most BORING part of Indiana. It doesn't get any flatter. Bloomington on the other hand, is in one of the best locations. However, Lafayette's economy is probably in the best shape shape outside of Indy. Bloomington, albeit doing well, seems to have factory closings every quarter.

The Lafayette Region may be geographically boring, but within the city it is extremely hilly, especially near the river. Many of Lafayette and WL's historic neighborhoods are very dense and compact due to this fact. Our downtown grid is extremely densely built, with each block being an amazing 1/16 of a mile wide and the streets being a maximum of 2 lanes wide.

[LouisvilleJake]

I agree Araman. I have been to Bloomington quite recently I noted how downtown Lafayette is much denser, and to be honest, more architecturally significant. Also, the area around Purdue where the proffessors live is called "Hills and Dales" for a reason, and the old money neighborhoods in Lafayette are also hilly, with dense tree cover. Lafayette is not a plain, devoid of trees...we are quite a bit less hilly than Bloomington, but we aren't exactly a total flat land...you just have to know the city in and out to get the whole picture.

[shane453]

Oklahoma also fits your analysis. I don't know establishment dates, but OU is the law/business school and OSU is perhaps the most prominent agricultural school in the nation (Though it currently offers very diverse programs unrelated to ag.)

Since OK doesn't have any professional sports teams, college sports is a major factor in opinions on universities. It's a big rivalry within the state. OU is very popular with its generally loyal fanbase and with recent bandwagoners who hopped onto recent football successes. OSU is more popular with the diehard OSU fans (Obviously).

OSU has a campus in Tulsa as well as OKC. Stillwater- OSU's town- is a small town but it's only about an hour from OKC or Tulsa. My experience with Stillwater is very good- I love staying there and I find it to be a fun enough place to want to go to live there for 4 years... haha. I've never had any reason to go to Norman so I don't know what it's like, but it's a larger city and close to OKC.

[araman0]

That reminds me, I did an informal research on http://www.bestplaces.net one time, and West Lafayette seemed to be Indiana's densest city. This is probably due to the city's small geographical size compared to the number of Purdue students living here.

[edsg25]

The Lafayette Region may be geographically boring, but within the city it is extremely hilly, especially near the river. Many of Lafayette and WL's historic neighborhoods are very dense and compact due to this fact. Our downtown grid is extremely densely built, with each block being an amazing 1/16 of a mile wide and the streets being a maximum of 2 lanes wide.

araman, is there any reason these two cities never merged? wouldn't it help the prestige generated by Purdue if the whole place just became Lafayette?

[edsg25]

OSU is more popular with the diehard OSU fans (Obviously).

.

shane, does OSU get any particular popularity over OU in the more rural parts of Oklahoma, or do those folks tend to be more Sooner fans, too?

[araman0]

araman, is there any reason these two cities never merged? wouldn't it help the prestige generated by Purdue if the whole place just became Lafayette?

I've always wondered that myself. Most people in Indiana consider Lafayette to be one of "those small towns", like Muncie or Anderson. They don't realize how much bigger and more vital Lafayette is to Indiana. I believe that if the two cities merged and became Lafayette with a population of 90,000 and a major university that it would gain much more attention from potential businesses and retailers wanting to move to the area, in addition to seperating itself from the other 50k-60k cities in Indiana.

From what I've read, back in the mid to late 1800's, West Lafayette had a different name all together. They only changed their name to West Lafayette in order to recieve postal services from it's larger brother, Lafayette.

[edsg25]

I
From what I've read, back in the mid to late 1800's, West Lafayette had a different name all together. They only changed their name to West Lafayette in order to recieve postal services from it's larger brother, Lafayette.

I believe that Champaign went the opposite direction, starting as West Urbana, but when the r.r. came through town, it took the name of the county and became Champaign.

Maybe some Illini sytle historian can confirm or refute.

[shane453]

shane, does OSU get any particular popularity over OU in the more rural parts of Oklahoma, or do those folks tend to be more Sooner fans, too?

Yes I think that's generally how it is. I live in a large OKC suburb and OU/OSU support is probably about 50/50, but the OU fans are more obnoxious about it so it seems like there are more of them... haha. OSU is naturally more popular in rural areas as they are more likely to have jobs in the agriculture field. Personally I don't plan to study agriculture but I'm going to go to OSU anyway.

[LouisvilleJake]

West Lafayette is a city located in Tippecanoe County, Indiana. As of the 2000 census, the city had a total population of 28,778. Despite its name and location (across the Wabash River from Lafayette, Indiana) it was an independently founded city and is not a suburb of Lafayette. West Lafayette was formed in 1888 from the merger of the towns of Chauncey and Kingston.

[Sam_Harmon]

I don't think it is odd when you have a state that has so many universities. They have to separate themselves somehow. Miami separates itself from the rest by being very selective. OU is a lot like Miami, even the campuses are very similar (a lot of brick). I now have to wash my mouth out for saying nice things about Miami, I am an OU guy and they are our sworn enemies!! :D

...Also tOSU became the flagship because of its athletic reputation. Almost everyone in the state is a Buckeye fan even if they are affiliated with another institution. Although, Ohio States medical school/hospital is one of the best in the world.

A couple of thoughts. First Ohio State did not become the flagship because of its athletic accomplishments. Rather, it was a combination of factors, chief among them its proximity to the state legislature and designation as the state's land grant university. Also, in retirement, former President Rutherford Hayes took the fledgling university under his wing. It's interesting to note that Ohio State was admitted to the Association of American Universities (http://www.aau.edu/aau/members.html) in 1916 before any of its athletic teams had begun to enjoy success in the Big Ten. Ohio State did not win its first Big Ten football championship until the following year. Both Miami and Ohio U. are still waiting on their invitiation.

Miami did enjoy an advantage in admissions selectivity over Ohio State from the late 1960's through the mid 1980's due to Jim Rhodes' policies. In the last fifteen years, however, that has been reversed, and admission policies between Ohio State and Miami are about equal--if not slightly more selective at Ohio State. The respective freshman classes at Ohio State (http://undergrad.osu.edu/admissions/fr2002profile.asp) and Miami (http://www.miami.muohio.edu/admission/academiclife/stats.cfm).

[edsg25]

A couple of thoughts. First Ohio State did not become the flagship because of its athletic accomplishments. Rather, it was a combination of factors, chief among them its proximity to the state legislature and designation as the state's land grant university. Also, in retirement, former President Rutherford Hayes took the fledgling university under his wing. It's interesting to note that Ohio State was admitted to the Association of American Universities (http://www.aau.edu/aau/members.html) in 1916 before any of its athletic teams had begun to enjoy success in the Big Ten. Ohio State did not win its first Big Ten football championship until the following year. Both Miami and Ohio U. are still waiting on their invitiation.

Miami did enjoy an advantage in admissions selectivity over Ohio State from the late 1960's through the mid 1980's due to Jim Rhodes' policies. In the last fifteen years, however, that has been reversed, and admission policies between Ohio State and Miami are about equal--if not slightly more selective at Ohio State. The respective freshman classes at Ohio State (http://undergrad.osu.edu/admissions/fr2002profile.asp) and Miami (http://www.miami.muohio.edu/admission/academiclife/stats.cfm).

I would think that Ohio State's rise to becoming Ohio's flagship public universit may be the latest of all such examples....unless you count Penn State's conversion from college to university in the mid-20th century.

Penn State may have been consdiered the flagship public school in PA long before that time, but it was only a college and more limited in service.

Kinda makes you wonder if any SUNY would every emerge as the true flagship of that system.

[Sam_Harmon]

I would think that Ohio State's rise to becoming Ohio's flagship public universit may be the latest of all such examples....unless you count Penn State's conversion from college to university in the mid-20th century.

Penn State may have been consdiered the flagship public school in PA long before that time, but it was only a college and more limited in service.

Kinda makes you wonder if any SUNY would every emerge as the true flagship of that system.

One development that I would consider as coming after would be UCLA's rise to being a counterweight and (almost) equal to Berkeley in the post-war period.

[edsg25]

One development that I would consider as coming after would be UCLA's rise to being a counterweight and (almost) equal to Berkeley in the post-war period.

sam, i agree with that observation (although i might view it as a different trend). and a similiar one to it would be how UNLV joined UN/Reno as an equal partner.

however, i'm not so sure the Calif. and Nevada examples are different from what happened in a number of states that had two flagships (in the sense that MSU joined U-M as a flagsip in Michigan, FSU with UF in Florida, ASU with UA in Arizona, etc.).

Those, to me, seem different from the Ohio situation, where OSU passed up a number of older schools and became the SINGLE flagship later in its development than most.

As I said before, I get the impression that the idea of "The" Ohio State University is used to confirm legitamacy in a way that older, established flagships would not feel necessary to use.

[NovaWolverine]

What other flagship was there in Ohio. I'm not really educated about that kinda history. But what is there. There's OU in Athens, Miami which is pretty good, Dayton which isn't bad, Xavier, Toledo in medical/pharmaceautical, but what is there that's really good. Michigan in general has a decent selection of in-state schools, I don't know that MSU has come equal with UM, maybe when the state looks at it, but 1/3 of UM is out of state, so maybe that has something to do with it.

UCLA, I agree with edsg, I feel it's part of another trend, but it has nonetheless legitiamized itself among the top 10 large public universities, which is high enough to be in contention with Berkeley.

[NovaWolverine]

What other flagship was there in Ohio. I'm not really educated about that kinda history. But what is there. There's OU in Athens, Miami which is pretty good, Dayton which isn't bad, Xavier, Toledo in medical/pharmaceautical, but what is there that's really good. Michigan in general has a decent selection of in-state schools, I don't know that MSU has come equal with UM, maybe when the state looks at it, but 1/3 of UM is out of state, so maybe that has something to do with it.

UCLA, I agree with edsg, I feel it's part of another trend, but it has nonetheless legitiamized itself among the top 10 large public universities, which is high enough to be in contention with Berkeley.

[edsg25]

What other flagship was there in Ohio. I'm not really educated about that kinda history. But what is there. There's OU in Athens, Miami which is pretty good, Dayton which isn't bad, Xavier, Toledo in medical/pharmaceautical, but what is there that's really good. Michigan in general has a decent selection of in-state schools, I don't know that MSU has come equal with UM, maybe when the state looks at it, but 1/3 of UM is out of state, so maybe that has something to do with it.

Nova, I think you are right about Ohio's other universities never having achieved flagship status. Ohio State did little but fill a void with its post Civil War rise.

Here's a questions I'd love to have Ohioians answer for us:
[B]why didn't one of the other schools (Ohio Univ. come to mind to start with...I think there were some real parallels between Ohio U's growth in Ohio and IU's growth in Indiana) come to the plate before the rise of OSU?

Nova, I don't think there is any question that U-M is more distinguished than MSU, nor that U-M is the premere public university throughout the nation's midsection (as well as being in a public "class by itself") in a trio of U-M, Cal, AND UVA. That said, there is no question that MSU has elevated itself to major,major stautus, a true second flagship in its state. MSU is in terms of academic, size, importance a greater instiution than many state's have in their first (oldest) public flagship.

[Sam_Harmon]

Nova, I think you are right about Ohio's other universities never having achieved flagship status. Ohio State did little but fill a void with its post Civil War rise.

Here's a questions I'd love to have Ohioians answer for us:
[B]why didn't one of the other schools (Ohio Univ. come to mind to start with...I think there were some real parallels between Ohio U's growth in Ohio and IU's growth in Indiana) come to the plate before the rise of OSU?


Here's a post from another thread that covers the two-minute history, as I understand it.

That's a good question. My understanding is that the two established public universities in Ohio (Miami of Ohio & OU) both wanted the land grant designation. They fought over it, and the legislature went to the extreme gesture of offering a split, where one university would become the "A" school and the other becoming the "M" school. When this compromise was rejected, the legislature simply founded another school to be the state's land grand institution. From the beginning, Ohio State's rise as the state's flagship university was fairly quick, as evidenced by its being offered AAU membership in 1916; whereas Miami of Ohio and Ohio U. have yet to be offered membership.

Two things in Ohio State's history have held it back academically. The first is the state's unregulated system of higher education, where every institution is allowed to compete with Ohio State at the graduate/research level. A great example of this is that 11 of the 13 public universities in Ohio offer a Ph.D program in history, with the vast majority of these programs being very lowly ranked and utterly redundant. A second factor were the four terms in the governor's mansion--from the late 60's to early 80's--of Jim Rhodes. His philosophy, enforced by his appointees to the board of trustees, severely limited how selective Ohio State's undergraduate admissions could be. Whether this philosophy sprung from the fact that he flunked out of Ohio State his freshman year, I'll leave to the historians. What is undisputable is that, while the graduate/research programs continued to grow and prosper, Rhodes' higher education philosophy set Ohio State back 20 years as an undergraduate insitution.

Ohio State reinstituted selective admissions the very year (1987) that Rhodes' appointees on the board of trustees became a minority. Since then, Ohio State has passed Miami of Ohio as the most selective public university in Ohio--although admittedly the numbers are very close. It's most recent freshman class would put it as the sixth most selective in the Big Ten--ahead of Purdue, Iowa, Minnesota, Indiana and Michigan State. It's overall ranking by USN&WR also puts it at sixth (tied with Purdue and Iowa) in The Big Ten.

[NovaWolverine]

MSU is a very respectable school now no doubt even though there's the rivarly.