Rank these Midwest DOWNTOWNS

[gych]

Downtowns are improving all over the Midwest...but who is doing the best? It does not have to be the biggest or have the best sports arena, but it must include historic, preserved architecture, pedestrian activity and nightlife, a strong business and office prescence, and good arts and restuarants. You cant have tons of vacant or run down buildings and it must be well lit and safe without bums hanging out everywhere. An independent theatre and art gallery scene is a plus.

Please rank these cities: Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Grand Rapids, Saint Louis, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus, Louisville, and Pittsburgh (major metros over 1 million).

The top 3 in my book are chicago, minneapolis, and indianapolis. From there, I really like Louisville at number 4 (a surprise to many if you havent been there in the last month or so). Saint Louis and KC are moving up fast, but due to the sheer geographic area their CBD encompasses and amount of vacant structures in their downtowns, they are still behind. I think Grand Rapids would be next, followed by Columbus, Cincy, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, milwaukee, and Detroit. Detroit is DEFINITELY dead last and chicago, minneapolis, and indy are definitely in the lead, but the rest are debatable.

Notice that the biggest downtowns with the biggest arenas arent always ranked the highest. Thats bc they appear very unsafe, dark, and full of bums in parts. And despite loft and condo conversions in all these cities, lets face it. The smaller the city, the less decay to clean up, the faster you can do it!! Certainly the larger downtowns like STL have the most potential--unless they keep tearing down historic buildings!!!!!

[JivecitySTL]

Gych, you need to do your homework. There are hardly any vacant buildings left in downtown STL (at least major buildings). Virtually ALL are under some phase of renovation or in the planning stages. My Midwest downtown potential rankings:

Chicago - already realized
Saint Louis - hometown bias, but also so many great buildings, great density, convenient rapid transit, sports, resurgent atmosphere, two major nightlife districts, a world-class landmark at its front door
Cleveland - see STL, without the monument and slightly less density
Detroit - the building stock makes me cream my pants, downtown is hooked up with the People Mover, but still a glut of beautiful vacant buildings
Minneapolis - great amenities, hasn't fallen as hard as many other cities, not quite as many historic buildings as some other Midwest 'burghs
Cincinnati - dense, charming, accessible, beautiful, although lacking rapid transit
Milwaukee - see Cincinnati; awesome lakefront
Kansas City - great buildings, nice setting, but no rapid transit, no sports presence
Indianapolis - highly centralized activity center, no rapid transit
Columbus - not very dense downtown, no rapid transit
Grand Rapids - don't know much about it

Louisville is a southern city, not Midwestern, so I won't even go there in this thread.

[the pope]

ha, there was just a big article in the PD about how miserable cleveland'd downtown office market is (class A at 19%)

[Minneapolis612]

My list goes 1.Chicago 2.Minneapolis 3.Detroit 4.St. Louis 5.Kansas City 6.Indianapolis 7.Cincinnati 8.Cleveland 9.Milwaukee 10.Columbus
The only downfall to some midwest cities is the downtown areas aren't that dense or they have large population but not that many skyscrapers. Minneapolis and St. louis have a great number of skylines for their size and they are pretty dense too.

[flatiron94]

#1 Minneapolis /Nice and clean :)
#2 Chicago /Great architecture!!
#3 st louis /Fountains gardens stainless steel arches. :eek2:

[Toggie]

Chicago
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everything else

you could probably combine every city on that list besides Chicago and Chicago would still win.

[Azn_chi_boi]

I agree ^

the closest second would be minneapolis

[Jeff]

Im only going to comment on the cities Ive been to

Chicago is #1. Given the size of this city it shouldnt be on the list as its not a fair comparison.

Milwaukee is maybe #2, given their interesting downtown, riverfront, and lakeside location. A bit dead, though.

Indianapolis...used to be blah, but the shopping mall and South Meridian is very very active, and alot of things are happening within the Mile Square that are really bouncing this downtown back from the dead. The residential/park developements along the old canal on the west end of downtown are amazing...remarkable example of adaptive use/revival of a derelict resource (the old canal).

Cleveland....not quite that dense, thought there is a very very active loft-conversion market going on immediatly adjacent to downtown, and now in downtown, too. Great gritty riverside area along the Cuyahoga, and a downtown college campus has potential to liven the place up. A Chinatown is developing east of downtown, too....Retail is iffy. Tower City is holding on, but declining. Big asset is rail transit connections w. the rest of the city...the only other city in the Midwest with an older rapid transit system.

Cincinnati...I like Cincy because of the density and urban feel, and there is still retail downtown. There are some very bad neighborhoods north of downtown, tho, which drags the place a bit.

Columbus...too "open"...too much parking lot mange... The had big mall downtown but its dying. The areas around downtown are very strong, though, so I think turnaround might be easier to pull off.


These two shouldnt be on the list as they are not midwestern:

Louisville,

Pittsburgh

But since they are:

Louisville has the worst downtown of the above. It is dead in terms of retail, and residential developement isnt as active or aggressive as the above. Alot of parking lots and bland open space, too.. Louisville suffers as it has a very hot scene in the neighborhoods that are somewhat removed from downtown (Clifton, Crescent Hill, Highlands), which detracts on action happening downtown. Cincinnati is a bit like this, too.



Pittsburgh has the best downtown of the list, aside from Chicago. Very dense, Retail is still solid, rail transit connections to the rest of the city, very little of the "parking lot plague", a and funky/gritty niteclub area ..Strip District...is immediatly adjacent. If it isnt happening alreday this downtown is primo candidate for loft conversions/donwntown living.

[HennepinHen]

Minneapolis - Currently undergoing a massive housing explosion. It also has huge corporations headquartered downtown. The best of all worlds. Except perhaps that there isn't much for someone visiting Minneapolis to do downtown. We have some shopping and some restaurants, but basically I can see a visitor being bored if they aren't into people watching, staring at magnificent skyscrapers, or art. Overall grade : A-

Milwaukee - Too drawn-out and anything but centralized. The actual "downtown" area is bland and uninviting. If they had tightened things up a bit like if downtown were closer to the lake and the attractions there, and perhaps if the new baseball stadium were closer, but if, if, if, don't pay the piper. Overall grade : D

Chicago - Please! It's Chicago. Everything you want is there. Overall grade : A+

Detroit - Detroit is starting to do things right with the stadiums downtown and corporations moving back and expanding downtown. But downtown Detroit still isn't someplace you want to be. It's merely someplace you go and do whatever you're doing (ballgame, meeting, work, gambling, opera, etc...) and then get the hell out. And shame on a city the size of Detroit for not having a better way for it's people to travel to and from the core of the city. Overall grade : D+

Grand Rapids - I know nothing about Grand Rapids, let alone it's downtown area.

Saint Louis - See Detroit, except on a smaller scale and with some mass transit. But unlike Detroit there are major plans for residential development. Overall grade : C

Kansas City - The actual CBD is dreary and stagnate. It is merely a place where men in suits work Monday through Friday from nine to five. If you take the KC'ers expanded downtown area (of like 20 square miles) there is signs of life with residential and attractions. Overall grade : D-

Indianapolis - Centralized, with a bit of a head start as compared to it's peers. Residential already established with much more on the way. And unlike Minneapolis it is a visitors haven. Plenty of things to do, safe, clean, vibrant. Overall grade : A

Cleveland - Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, all of the stadiums, Terminal Place, the Flats. What happened? All of those wonderful 90's projects that started out so well and had such promise. Then it just seems like everybody just stopped and took a long nap. Overall grade : C+

Cincinnati - Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Other than sports stadiums and a new runaway slave museum, what is there in downtown Cincinnati that would have people in the suburbs wanting to come downtown on a Saturday? At least most of Cincinnati's major corporations are still located downtown. Overall grade : D

Columbus - The one thing that the two Ohio cities of Cincinnati and Columbus have in common. Except Columbus doesn't have as many downtown sports stadiums. Overall grade : D-

Louisville - I don't know anything about Louisville, let alone it's downtown area.

Pittsburgh - Stunning buildings and geography, with plenty of things to do in the downtown area. Vibrant outside of the M-F 9-5 times, but could use a little more residential. Overall grade : B+

[VanillaVille]

Ummmm, okay quickly. I'm not going to do the grades though. This way maybe the person in Grand Rapids that reads this won't be too upset. Because maybe Grand Rapids is last in my list but I'd give it a B, or maybe I would give it an F. You'll never know.

1 Chicago
2 Minneapolis
3 Indianapolis
4 Pittsburgh
5 Cincinnati
6 Cleveland
7 Detroit
8 St. Louis
9 Columbus
10 Milwaukee
11 Louisville
12 Kansas City
13 Grand Rapids

[STL4EVER]

The top 3 in my book are chicago, minneapolis, and indianapolis. From there, I really like Louisville at number 4 (a surprise to many if you havent been there in the last month or so). Saint Louis and KC are moving up fast, but due to the sheer geographic area their CBD encompasses and amount of vacant structures in their downtowns, they are still behind. I think Grand Rapids would be next, followed by Columbus, Cincy, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, milwaukee, and Detroit. Detroit is DEFINITELY dead last and chicago, minneapolis, and indy are definitely in the lead, but the rest are debatable.

Notice that the biggest downtowns with the biggest arenas arent always ranked the highest. Thats bc they appear very unsafe, dark, and full of bums in parts. And despite loft and condo conversions in all these cities, lets face it. The smaller the city, the less decay to clean up, the faster you can do it!! Certainly the larger downtowns like STL have the most potential--unless they keep tearing down historic buildings!!!!!

Here we go again. What the hell is it with you dude? Why do you have such a bug up your ass about Saint Louis?

Downtown Lousiville better than downtown Saint Louis? Yeah, beacuse so many people go to downtown Louisville to, uh, well they uh, you see what they do is, it would involve uh, hey! What exactly do people do in downtown Louisville, other than watching the barges go past? I could go into everything that makes Saint Louis better than Louisville, but I don't want to waste my time since it wouldn't mean a thing to you. All you seem to enjoy doing is slamming Saint Louis with lies.

[jdkacz]

being from grand rapids, i will shed some light on the city and i will keep it out of my rankings based on my subjectivity of my hometown.

#1 Chicago- by far, and I think Chicago today is what everyone in Detroit in the 30's & 40's thought Detroit would be like. nonetheless, Chicago is above and beyond the midwest's flagship city.

#2 Minneapolis - fantastic city and continuing to grow.

#3 Detroit - home state bias here, but there are few cities in the usa that has more amazing storied blds downtown. that strong base is there for such a strong city to emerge, its quite painful to see the growing pains.

#4 St. Louis - its has the same feel as detroit and chicago and have always loved the city when visiting.

the rest i havent been too, but based on what i've read...

#5 Indianapolis
#6 Pittsburg
#7 Cincinnati
#8 Kansas City
#9 Milwaukee
#10 Columbus
#11 Cleveland
#12 Louisville - its not midwestern

And for Grand Rapids, the city's downtown continues to grow with 100's of condos built/being built within the last five years. Plus for the city of our size (appox 200,000) there is a 31 story residential tower and new 22-story hotel tower that are both supposed to be built this year.

also light rail has been proposed, and the city's new art musuem is currently under construction. the advent of restaurants downtown has been great since the construction of our arena, however downtown retail is barley creeping along.

truly, within the last 10 years the development, growth, and potential has been amazing and will continue to revitalize the downtown area. based on the grand rapids' size im not sure it can ever truly compete against the likes of detroit/st louis/chicago etc, but based on the amount of growth downtown i would say that GR should be on the middle of that list.

[CG5]

Milwaukee - Too drawn-out and anything but centralized. The actual "downtown" area is bland and uninviting. If they had tightened things up a bit like if downtown were closer to the lake and the attractions there, and perhaps if the new baseball stadium were closer, but if, if, if, don't pay the piper. Overall grade : D


I'm kind of speechless after that.

[JivecitySTL]

How did Pittsburgh wind up in the Midwest section yet again?

And Louisville? WTF?

[qwerty1324]

Milwaukee has the second best downtown in the Midwest, an aweseom lakefront on downtown, and also has the large urban East Side neighborhood abutting downtown. Milwaukee is also developing condos in its core faster than any other midwest city aside from Chicago - data as of Oct 2004. No other Midwest city, aside from my hometown with bias, can touch that.

[HumbleHoosier]

I'm going to do this here thing, but I ain't gonna piss anybody off. Impossible you say? Maybe, but I'm a go-getter and I'm gonna make it work. First off, no actual ranking or grades. Secondly, absolutely no definite commentary on any city. No blanket statements, ie this downtown has no nightlife. So you ask exactly what I'm doing with this response as I have ruled out all forms of reply? I shall merely pass along my personal experience visiting each of these downtowns with my family. So if I don't mention something wonderful about your city, it's simply because I didn't see it. And if I make an unkind remark, well, it's just because it happened to me and maybe it would never happen again, so it isn't any real slam against your city, as bad things can occur in any city at any time.

I will not comment on Indianapolis or Cincinnati as I have visited each downtown hundreds of times, and therefore experienced nearly everything.

Minneapolis : Big downtown with a big-city feel as you approach. But we didn't spend a great deal of time there as there is very little for a family with small kids (5 & 9 at the time) to do there. The park area near the art museums was pleasant and left us with nice feelings about downtown Minneapolis.

Milwaukee : There was little to nothing at all going on in the downtown downtown area on the day that we were there. I believe it was a weekend day and the only thing missing was blowing tumbleweeds. So, as you can guess, not many good feelings.

Chicago : Been there many times and enjoyed ourselves each time we've been. Happy vibes all around. Can't help but feel like Ferris Bueller - Twist and shout!

Detroit : My son and I have been twice. Once for a Tiger game at Tiger Stadium, and the next year for a Tiger game at Comerica Park. Big and beautiful downtown with amazing architecture and old buildings, but somewhat like a Hollywood soundstage. No soul, if that makes any sense. Or maybe it would be better to say no life. We had a good time at the games, but it was a little eerie away from the stadiums.

Cleveland : Have been a few times with my family and loved it each time. We've enjoyed ourselves with many things to do, and more importantly have always come away with a happy feeling about being there.

Columbus : There's nothing there. All we noticed were a block with an office building followed by a block of surface parking for that office building, and then another office building and more surface parking. We did go during a weekday so there was activity, which helped. But all in all we really had no feeling about it.

Pittsburgh : Stayed the weekend. Did the Science Center, and the submarine, and the incline, and Ft. Pitt, and tons more, and just hung out downtown eating and shopping. Noticed a nice area of very active nightclubs nearby, but with our kids with us we couldn't partake. Stayed at the Renaissance then went across the Roberto Clemente bridge on Sunday afternoon for a baseball game. Very happy experience and nothing went wrong the entire time we were there.

Louisville : Driven past many times but only actually visited once and that was very brief. Louisville Slugger museum and baseball game at their new ballpark. Again, not many feelings about it. It was a downtown and we visited and that was that.

Grand Rapids : Didn't spend much time in downtown. We researched it before we left and the few things for tourists to do in Grand Rapids were all just outside downtown to way outside downtown. Hard to get a feeling about a downtown with just a drive-by.

St.Louis : Spent most of our time near Forest Park, but of course did go downtown for the Arch. Made the mistake of going to Union Station with it's mostly closed shops and quite a few gang members or at least gang member wanna-bes. So outside of downtown we had good vibes, but downtown didn't leave us wanting more.

Kansas City : I've never been to downtown KC. I've driven through and I've been to Crown Center and that park, but never visited downtown.

[Toggie]

Milwaukee has the second best downtown in the Midwest, an aweseom lakefront on downtown, and also has the large urban East Side neighborhood abutting downtown. Milwaukee is also developing condos in its core faster than any other midwest city aside from Chicago - data as of Oct 2004. No other Midwest city, aside from my hometown with bias, can touch that.

^ you sure about that claim?

[HumbleHoosier]

How did Pittsburgh wind up in the Midwest section yet again?

And Louisville? WTF?

Sorry Jive, just following along with everybody else. And those cities were among the cities that the thread originator asked for.

[JivecitySTL]

Milwaukee is also developing condos in its core faster than any other midwest city aside from Chicago - data as of Oct 2004.
Do you have that data?

No other Midwest city, aside from my hometown with bias, can touch that.
I thought your hometown was Boston?

St.Louis : Made the mistake of going to Union Station with it's mostly closed shops and quite a few gang members or at least gang member wanna-bes.
I guess you're talking about St. Louis Centre, not Union Station. Union Station is 90% occupied and is a huge tourist attraction (gang members???). St. Louis Centre, on the other hand, is 90% vacant and a huge magnet for vagrants and street thugs.

[HumbleHoosier]

Granted it's been six or seven years, but I could've sworn it was Union Station. Ah hell, you're probably right.

[ColDayMan]

From my experiences, knowledge, and afterthoughts...

1. Chicago - Nuff said. Not even a contest.

2. Minneapolis - Easily the second best downtown. Great retail, nightlife options, and is the hub of Minnesota. A bit sterile but in terms of general downtown aspects, a nice downtown.

3. Indianapolis - Arguably, the state of Indiana's downtown. Progressive, shiny, clean, vibrant and a metro of 1.8 million. A bit sterile/Disneyesque but in terms of general downtown aspects, a job well done.

4. Pittsburgh - More established, arguably the structurally densest of ALL the downtowns (including Chicago), this one is large, honest, and a "living" one (meaning, function yet doesn't cater to suburbanites). Very walkable, very aesthetically friendly, one of the best period. I would rank it higher in my personal list over Minnie and Indy but it does not have the drawing power of the latter, as of yet. It's essentially an eastern San Francisco downtown, minus the yuppies.

5. Cincinnati - Another functional downtown, it doesn't care about Gucci shops, fancy indoor malls, nor "clean streets," but what it does care about is residential and restaurants, two key concepts (which both clearly work). It may not build the shiny towers of Minneapolis but it does convert old 1800's buildings into functional shops, restaurants, and such. Of course the whole Fortune 500 thing and inner-ring neighborhoods that are being rehabbed is a good thing. The downtown is extremely dense, walkable, and is ever-changing. And, like Pittsburgh, is established.

6. Cleveland - It may not be the densest downtown but it sure is the "grandest" outside of Chicago and arguably tied with Detroit. Beaux-arts, theaters, restaurants, nightclubs, and of course, the lake give this city a nice coastal-esque feel. It needs improvements (as do all our downtown) including the whole parking-lot thing but it does have an advantage: The Rapid transit and a large mall/complex aside it.

7. Milwaukee - A surpriser, Milwaukee's downtown is rather large, decently dense, and has a decent nightlife. The surrounding areas immediately outside the downtown and the gorgeous lakefront parks keep this city's downtown attractive. It still suffers the Great-Lakes syndrome of parking lots but again, the city is smart, building highrise residential, and is stable.

8. Louisville - A city the size of Louisville is doing damn good. New residential projects, restaurants, 4th Street Live, and various other things keep Kentucky's "downtown" afloat. Compared to near "tiered" cities like Dayton, Rochester, and Richmond, Louisville does a damn good job. But what else do you expect out of the state's largest (and only primate) city?

9. St. Louis - Improving would be the best word. I never really cared for the downtown area of St. Louis but it has come along way (esp. Washington Avenue). Though they have the Metrolink underground (a big plus), St. Louis seems like the attention is still away from downtown (though they are doing their best to correct this), which is still "a ways to go." Again, I expect it to improve in the near future and hopefully become more functional as years go on.

10. Columbus - Another "improving" downtown. Five years ago, downtown was abysmal. Literally, abysmal. Bland office parks situated along 8 lane "boulevards." But. Then. The. Arena District came along and literally sparked Columbus' candle. Thus, new projects, City Center Mall's rehabbing, surface lots going away (70% are currently going to be under development by 2010), Arena District expansion, RiverSouth developments, and of course, TWO full service urban grocers (Whole Foods and Kroger), the LRT line coming soon via Convention Center area, and Columbus will be a whole new downtown in 10-15 years.

11. Detroit - Talk about potential. Great architecture, fascinating layout, and slow improvements will keep Detroit's downtown alive. Detroit has a tougher situtation than most due to the whole suburban downtown x 10 thing but they are improving VERY much with Campus Martius, River Prominades, and other projects. Detroit I hope skyrockets to #2 on this list, as it honestly should be there.

12. Kansas City - Much like Columbus, Kansas City was plagued with parking lots and sterile downtown syndrome. But much like current Columbus, Kansas City has a lot of redevelopments (from what I saw last December) and has strong potential. KC and Columbus should be tied BUT the reason I put Columbus ahead of KC is that Columbus is atleast working/sorting through the transit options (re: LRT) currently.

13. Grand Rapids - Really surpringly dense downtown with some nice restaurants and decent waterfront. But on this list, it's last (but that isn't a bad thing; it's still a very nice downtown and arguably more vibrant than Detroit's).

[gych]

Here we go again. What the hell is it with you dude? Why do you have such a bug up your ass about Saint Louis?

Downtown Lousiville better than downtown Saint Louis? Yeah, beacuse so many people go to downtown Louisville to, uh, well they uh, you see what they do is, it would involve uh, hey! What exactly do people do in downtown Louisville, other than watching the barges go past? I could go into everything that makes Saint Louis better than Louisville, but I don't want to waste my time since it wouldn't mean a thing to you. All you seem to enjoy doing is slamming Saint Louis with lies.


Not every one thinks that STL is great. And sorry, yeah, 4th street in Louisville is MUCH more fun and vibrant at 2 am on a saturday than anything in downtown STL. This includes when I was there for the final four!!! We are talking some top notch, uppity clubs that are really a lot of fun, plus you can drink in the street. Sure STL has some nice places too, but since the downtown is so much bigger, there is a lot more to clean up. THATS A FACT! We are talking THOUSANDS of people at clubs and socializing all in one spot in Louisville.

I dont think many of you are familiar with all the new residential in downtown Louisville either. Oh well, it has all happened abruptly in the last year or so. Your assumption is correct based on the Louisville of yesteryear. The new Lousiville, my friend? Its jumping, and downtown has done a complete 180. Oh and watching barges on the river? At least in Louisville we have AN AWARD WINNING PARK to do that from downtown. Whats on your waterfront, STL? This isnt city vs city, its downtown vs. downtown. It is possible that smaller cities can have a better downtown than larger ones--for now at least.

The nag on downtown Louisville is their retail (or lack of, about the nicest store is Borders), but how many downtowns are HONESTLY the premier destination for shopping anymore? There is no WAY in hell you can rank detroit's downtown above Louisville or any other city on here. I am talking about functionality here for living, and the amenities of nightlife and restauarants without ghettoness. Much of the same came be said about STL. Sure these cities have tons of potential, but would you really wanna walk around at 3 am by yourself down there by some vacant bldg?

Oh, and Im from Louisville. I say it is Midwestern and part of this poll, so deal with it. Rank the cities I put up there along with Pitt BASED SOLELY ON THE FUNCTIONALITY OF THEIR DOWNTOWN IF YOU LIVED THERE. I didnt mention retail as a factor, but if it was, certainly downtown Louisville wouldnt be for you. For safety, nightlife, and affordability, I think you could find a nice condo down there. Also nice park on the river with free WiFi as well as a skatepark. Not top mention the museums and such, but all these cities have great museums on this list.

[gych]

From my experiences, knowledge, and afterthoughts...

1. Chicago - Nuff said. Not even a contest.

2. Minneapolis - Easily the second best downtown. Great retail, nightlife options, and is the hub of Minnesota. A bit sterile but in terms of general downtown aspects, a nice downtown.

3. Indianapolis - Arguably, the state of Indiana's downtown. Progressive, shiny, clean, vibrant and a metro of 1.8 million. A bit sterile/Disneyesque but in terms of general downtown aspects, a job well done.

4. Pittsburgh - More established, arguably the structurally densest of ALL the downtowns (including Chicago), this one is large, honest, and a "living" one (meaning, function yet doesn't cater to suburbanites). Very walkable, very aesthetically friendly, one of the best period. I would rank it higher in my personal list over Minnie and Indy but it does not have the drawing power of the latter, as of yet. It's essentially an eastern San Francisco downtown, minus the yuppies.

5. Cincinnati - Another functional downtown, it doesn't care about Gucci shops, fancy indoor malls, nor "clean streets," but what it does care about is residential and restaurants, two key concepts (which both clearly work). It may not build the shiny towers of Minneapolis but it does convert old 1800's buildings into functional shops, restaurants, and such. Of course the whole Fortune 500 thing and inner-ring neighborhoods that are being rehabbed is a good thing. The downtown is extremely dense, walkable, and is ever-changing. And, like Pittsburgh, is established.

6. Cleveland - It may not be the densest downtown but it sure is the "grandest" outside of Chicago and arguably tied with Detroit. Beaux-arts, theaters, restaurants, nightclubs, and of course, the lake give this city a nice coastal-esque feel. It needs improvements (as do all our downtown) including the whole parking-lot thing but it does have an advantage: The Rapid transit and a large mall/complex aside it.

7. Milwaukee - A surpriser, Milwaukee's downtown is rather large, decently dense, and has a decent nightlife. The surrounding areas immediately outside the downtown and the gorgeous lakefront parks keep this city's downtown attractive. It still suffers the Great-Lakes syndrome of parking lots but again, the city is smart, building highrise residential, and is stable.

8. Louisville - A city the size of Louisville is doing damn good. New residential projects, restaurants, 4th Street Live, and various other things keep Kentucky's "downtown" afloat. Compared to near "tiered" cities like Dayton, Rochester, and Richmond, Louisville does a damn good job. But what else do you expect out of the state's largest (and only primate) city?

9. St. Louis - Improving would be the best word. I never really cared for the downtown area of St. Louis but it has come along way (esp. Washington Avenue). Though they have the Metrolink underground (a big plus), St. Louis seems like the attention is still away from downtown (though they are doing their best to correct this), which is still "a ways to go." Again, I expect it to improve in the near future and hopefully become more functional as years go on.

10. Columbus - Another "improving" downtown. Five years ago, downtown was abysmal. Literally, abysmal. Bland office parks situated along 8 lane "boulevards." But. Then. The. Arena District came along and literally sparked Columbus' candle. Thus, new projects, City Center Mall's rehabbing, surface lots going away (70% are currently going to be underdeveloped by 2010), Arena District expansion, RiverSouth developments, and of course, TWO full service urban grocers (Whole Foods and Kroger), the LRT line coming soon via Convention Center area, and Columbus will be a whole new downtown in 10-15 years.

11. Detroit - Talk about potential. Great architecture, fascinating layout, and slow improvements will keep Detroit's downtown alive. Detroit has a tougher situtation than most due to the whole suburban downtown x 10 thing but they are improving VERY much with Campus Martius, River Prominades, and other projects. Detroit I hope skyrockets to #2 on this list, as it honestly should be there.

12. Kansas City - Much like Columbus, Kansas City was plagued with parking lots and sterile downtown syndrome. But much like current Columbus, Kansas City has a lot of redevelopments (from what I saw last December) and has strong potential. KC and Columbus should be tied BUT the reason I put Columbus ahead of KC is that Columbus is atleast working/sorting through the transit options (re: LRT) currently.

13. Grand Rapids - Really surpringly dense downtown with some nice restaurants and decent waterfront. But on this list, it's last (but that isn't a bad thing; it's still a very nice downtown and arguably more vibrant than Detroit's).


Coldayman, YOU HAVE HIT THE NAIL ON THE FUCKING head. I agree with everything you say here. Its good, honest, and displays what you think it would be like to FUNCTIONALLY live in each of these downtowns.

[JivecitySTL]

^I really disagree with ColDay's rankings, but it's all a matter of opinion and personal biases anyway.

Gych, here's a hint-- try actually visiting a city before you attempt to sum it up based on stereotypes. You are so clearly ignorant.

And sorry to break it to ya-- Louisville is southern, not Midwestern.

[Daytwahs Own]

Rank the cities I put up there along with Pitt BASED SOLELY ON THE FUNCTIONALITY OF THEIR DOWNTOWN IF YOU LIVED THERE.

So if you don't live you can't tell if the downtown is functional for the people who do...
and louisville is not midwest niether is Pittsburgh

you killed all your credibility with this
"..it seemed like I was the only white guy around.."
If you didnt care you would not have mentioned it.

thats sig worthy material

[ColDayMan]

^I really disagree with ColDay's rankings, but it's all a matter of opinion and personal biases anyway.

And that's fine. It's just personal observations I've made throughout my travels + forum information/projects.

[CG5]

Louisville is the northernmost Southern City and the southernmost Midwestern City. But Pitts isn't Southern or Midwestern.

[DTO Luv]

Downtowns are improving all over the Midwest...but who is doing the best? It does not have to be the biggest or have the best sports arena, but it must include historic, preserved architecture, pedestrian activity and nightlife, a strong business and office prescence, and good arts and restuarants. You cant have tons of vacant or run down buildings and it must be well lit and safe without bums hanging out everywhere. An independent theatre and art gallery scene is a plus.

Please rank these cities: Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Grand Rapids, Saint Louis, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus, Louisville, and Pittsburgh (major metros over 1 million).

What?!? No Omaha? Seriously we have 850,000 people on our own and anthoer 280,000 (Lincoln) surrounded my Omaha so that at least 1,113,000 people and our DT has all of the above mentioned things. It probably just won't be an official CSA until 2010.

[wheelingman]

I agree with what ColDayMan said about the downtowns.

[Jeff]

"...Arena District came along and literally sparked Columbus' candle. Thus, new projects, City Center Mall's rehabbing, surface lots going away (70% are currently going to be under development by 2010)..."

The surface lots going away is going to really change the character of downtown Columbus for the better...

Interesting to compare Cleveland, Milwaulkee, and Chicago a bit as they are all Great Lakes cities on a river....if Chicago was not the very large city it has become it would have been more like Milwaulkee or maybe (more tenuous) Cleveland, focused more on its river...historical accounts of erly Chicago show that it was focused on the Chicago River as the "port"...ant the orignal "Main Street"...Lake Street...paralleled the river, one block north of the bank.

There was also deliberate plan and large scale investment to refocus the city on Lake Michigan via Grant Park and Lake Shore Drive.

[Jeff]

So if you don't live you can't tell if the downtown is functional for the people who do...


....well, then I cant really comment on any of these cities. I do know that there are Krogers very close to downtown Louisville and Cincinnati, so I guess that makes them fairly funcitonal as one does not have to travel to the suburbans to go grocery shopping.


For downtown to be funtional for residents it would need some basics like grocery stores, drug stores, dry cleaners, maybe a laundermat, and so forth...as well as good transit, parking, a gas station, etc...transportation issues...

Having bars or nightclubs does not make a downtown "funcitonal".

[edsg25]

Milwaukee has the second best downtown in the Midwest, an aweseom lakefront on downtown, and also has the large urban East Side neighborhood abutting downtown. Milwaukee is also developing condos in its core faster than any other midwest city aside from Chicago - data as of Oct 2004. No other Midwest city, aside from my hometown with bias, can touch that.

Qwerty, thanks for the post. Until I read it, I couldn't believe what I was reading. How folks could have rated downtown Milw as low as they did is beyond me.

Let's do a reality check here, folks: among midwestern cities, only three are forunate enough to have a lakefront location: Chicago, Milwaukee, and Cleveland. Of the three, Chicago and Milwaukee share a history of continuous care for their lakefront settings. So Milw has a tremendous adantage that few midwestern cities have. Meanwhile, like Chicago, Milw is the only midwestern city where a river runs through the heart of its downtown (as opposed to the Cauyahoga, which edges downtown Cleveland...and is actually below it), with towers on both sides of the river, again another amenity. Downtown Milw has a unique German-influenced architecture, a high rise expensive downtown component on the East Side that other midwestern cities don't have, trendy neighborhoods near downtown, one of the best warehouse redevelopments in the Third Ward, a major univ campus downtown (Marquette), and the spectacular setting of the Sumerfest grounds.

I can't believe how many people are dismissing Milw here. A lot of the people who posted have obviously noted how great downtown Chicago is. Yet Chicagoans are the ones who are probably most likely to praise downtown Milwaukee. So ask yourself: who is more positon than a Chicagoan to know Milwaukee or more in position to recognize a good downtown than a Chicagoan?

[edsg25]

From my experiences, knowledge, and afterthoughts...

1. Chicago - Nuff said. Not even a contest.

2. Minneapolis - Easily the second best downtown. Great retail, nightlife options, and is the hub of Minnesota. A bit sterile but in terms of general downtown aspects, a nice downtown.

3. Indianapolis - Arguably, the state of Indiana's downtown. Progressive, shiny, clean, vibrant and a metro of 1.8 million. A bit sterile/Disneyesque but in terms of general downtown aspects, a job well done.

4. Pittsburgh - More established, arguably the structurally densest of ALL the downtowns (including Chicago), this one is large, honest, and a "living" one (meaning, function yet doesn't cater to suburbanites). Very walkable, very aesthetically friendly, one of the best period. I would rank it higher in my personal list over Minnie and Indy but it does not have the drawing power of the latter, as of yet. It's essentially an eastern San Francisco downtown, minus the yuppies.

5. Cincinnati - Another functional downtown, it doesn't care about Gucci shops, fancy indoor malls, nor "clean streets," but what it does care about is residential and restaurants, two key concepts (which both clearly work). It may not build the shiny towers of Minneapolis but it does convert old 1800's buildings into functional shops, restaurants, and such. Of course the whole Fortune 500 thing and inner-ring neighborhoods that are being rehabbed is a good thing. The downtown is extremely dense, walkable, and is ever-changing. And, like Pittsburgh, is established.

6. Cleveland - It may not be the densest downtown but it sure is the "grandest" outside of Chicago and arguably tied with Detroit. Beaux-arts, theaters, restaurants, nightclubs, and of course, the lake give this city a nice coastal-esque feel. It needs improvements (as do all our downtown) including the whole parking-lot thing but it does have an advantage: The Rapid transit and a large mall/complex aside it.

7. Milwaukee - A surpriser, Milwaukee's downtown is rather large, decently dense, and has a decent nightlife. The surrounding areas immediately outside the downtown and the gorgeous lakefront parks keep this city's downtown attractive. It still suffers the Great-Lakes syndrome of parking lots but again, the city is smart, building highrise residential, and is stable.

8. Louisville - A city the size of Louisville is doing damn good. New residential projects, restaurants, 4th Street Live, and various other things keep Kentucky's "downtown" afloat. Compared to near "tiered" cities like Dayton, Rochester, and Richmond, Louisville does a damn good job. But what else do you expect out of the state's largest (and only primate) city?

9. St. Louis - Improving would be the best word. I never really cared for the downtown area of St. Louis but it has come along way (esp. Washington Avenue). Though they have the Metrolink underground (a big plus), St. Louis seems like the attention is still away from downtown (though they are doing their best to correct this), which is still "a ways to go." Again, I expect it to improve in the near future and hopefully become more functional as years go on.

10. Columbus - Another "improving" downtown. Five years ago, downtown was abysmal. Literally, abysmal. Bland office parks situated along 8 lane "boulevards." But. Then. The. Arena District came along and literally sparked Columbus' candle. Thus, new projects, City Center Mall's rehabbing, surface lots going away (70% are currently going to be under development by 2010), Arena District expansion, RiverSouth developments, and of course, TWO full service urban grocers (Whole Foods and Kroger), the LRT line coming soon via Convention Center area, and Columbus will be a whole new downtown in 10-15 years.

11. Detroit - Talk about potential. Great architecture, fascinating layout, and slow improvements will keep Detroit's downtown alive. Detroit has a tougher situtation than most due to the whole suburban downtown x 10 thing but they are improving VERY much with Campus Martius, River Prominades, and other projects. Detroit I hope skyrockets to #2 on this list, as it honestly should be there.

12. Kansas City - Much like Columbus, Kansas City was plagued with parking lots and sterile downtown syndrome. But much like current Columbus, Kansas City has a lot of redevelopments (from what I saw last December) and has strong potential. KC and Columbus should be tied BUT the reason I put Columbus ahead of KC is that Columbus is atleast working/sorting through the transit options (re: LRT) currently.

13. Grand Rapids - Really surpringly dense downtown with some nice restaurants and decent waterfront. But on this list, it's last (but that isn't a bad thing; it's still a very nice downtown and arguably more vibrant than Detroit's).

ColDay, it is so rare to see somebody make a list and commentary as you have above and dwell on the positive, to avoid cheap shoots, to avoid any sense of a lesser value as you went down your list.

You may think that's nothing special, but I think it is wonderful window into your character and your ability to give every place you discussed not only appropriate observation...but their fair due, as well.

A very classy observation.

I wish a lot of other posters would post as you do.
:)

[JivecitySTL]

So ask yourself: who is more in position to recognize a good downtown than a Chicagoan?
So in essence, what you're saying is that Chicagoans' opinions supercede the opinions of everyone else. You must realize how condescending and conceited that sounds, edsg. For someone who praises ColDay's responses for being "classy" I'd expect more from you.

[Jason]

like if downtown were closer to the lake and the attractions there....Overall grade : D
http://www.wisconsinharbortowns.org/images/milwaukee1_sm.jpg


Ummm, ya, it's too bad that downtown Milwaukee isn't near the lake. Those damn parks, they just get in the way!

My grade of your grade: D-

[TheKansan]

Here is my list.

1. Chicago
2. Minneapolis
3. St. Louis
4. Detroit
5. Cleveland
6. Milwaukee
7. Cincinnati
8. Indianapolis
9. Grand Rapids
10. Kansas City

I will only comment on KC's downtown since I know it best. KC's official downtown definition is huge and I can't really consider it for this type of issue, so I only have considered the downtown loop, and excluded the crossroads, river market, crown center, and the west bottoms. Kansas City's downtown is in distress. It suffers from a high office vacancy rate, and a lack of interest in it by the majority of the metro area. Many buildings have recently been converted to lofts which has increased the downtown population, however many of these people have a suburban mentality in that they drive every where. The result is that pedestrians are rare. Downtown is the focal point of the KC bus system, however there is no rail mass transit connecting downtown KC. A BRT system is set to open this year. There are currently no sporting venues downtown. A new arena is under construction, but will not be completed for a couple of years. Entertainment downtown on an average night is hard to come by, and that issue will not be addressed until the downtown KC entertainment district has been completed. There is virtually no shopping downtown. This includes grocery shopping for new loft residents. The last of the department stores left back in the late 90's. Downtown is seen by some as dangerous due to the quiet streets and the homeless, though the truth is that it is rather safe. None of KC's well known attractions are located in the downtown loop. It's museums, landmarks, sports teams, shopping districts, club districts, entertainment venues, etc are all located outside of downtown. The result is a spread out city with a very weak center. IF we were to go by the three square mile area that KC city leaders define as downtown, then yes our downtown would look a lot better. If we looked at the future of downtown with the new BRT system, the new entertainment district, the new shopping and residential that goes along with the entertainment district, the new arena, and a lot of the proposed infill, then yes KC would be much better. However currently downtown KC sucks.

[JB_Gold Coast]

So in essence, what you're saying is that Chicagoans' opinions supercede the opinions of everyone else. You must realize how condescending and conceited that sounds, edsg. For someone who praises ColDay's responses for being "classy" I'd expect more from you.

To be honest, I would probably value the opinions of Chicagoans (at least in ranking midwest downtowns) less than people from smaller midwest cities. The harsh reality is that our downtown is so far and away better than any other downtown in the region that our expectations are distorted and it is hard for most to view another midwestern city from any perspective other than "Chicago is much better."

[HennepinHen]

Ummm, ya, it's too bad that downtown Milwaukee isn't near the lake. Those damn parks, they just get in the way!

My grade of your grade: D-

I'm sorry that you feel insulted, but when we went to downtown Milwaukee it felt disconnected from the lakefront area. The museums and park along the lakefront were wonderful, but it was a decent walk to the actual downtown area, and when we got there it was like a different world. It just needs a little more connectivity and integration that's all I'm saying.

[JB_Gold Coast]

From my experiences, knowledge, and afterthoughts...

1. Chicago - Nuff said. Not even a contest.

2. Minneapolis - Easily the second best downtown. Great retail, nightlife options, and is the hub of Minnesota. A bit sterile but in terms of general downtown aspects, a nice downtown.

3. Indianapolis - Arguably, the state of Indiana's downtown. Progressive, shiny, clean, vibrant and a metro of 1.8 million. A bit sterile/Disneyesque but in terms of general downtown aspects, a job well done.

4. Pittsburgh - More established, arguably the structurally densest of ALL the downtowns (including Chicago), this one is large, honest, and a "living" one (meaning, function yet doesn't cater to suburbanites). Very walkable, very aesthetically friendly, one of the best period. I would rank it higher in my personal list over Minnie and Indy but it does not have the drawing power of the latter, as of yet. It's essentially an eastern San Francisco downtown, minus the yuppies.

5. Cincinnati - Another functional downtown, it doesn't care about Gucci shops, fancy indoor malls, nor "clean streets," but what it does care about is residential and restaurants, two key concepts (which both clearly work). It may not build the shiny towers of Minneapolis but it does convert old 1800's buildings into functional shops, restaurants, and such. Of course the whole Fortune 500 thing and inner-ring neighborhoods that are being rehabbed is a good thing. The downtown is extremely dense, walkable, and is ever-changing. And, like Pittsburgh, is established.

6. Cleveland - It may not be the densest downtown but it sure is the "grandest" outside of Chicago and arguably tied with Detroit. Beaux-arts, theaters, restaurants, nightclubs, and of course, the lake give this city a nice coastal-esque feel. It needs improvements (as do all our downtown) including the whole parking-lot thing but it does have an advantage: The Rapid transit and a large mall/complex aside it.

7. Milwaukee - A surpriser, Milwaukee's downtown is rather large, decently dense, and has a decent nightlife. The surrounding areas immediately outside the downtown and the gorgeous lakefront parks keep this city's downtown attractive. It still suffers the Great-Lakes syndrome of parking lots but again, the city is smart, building highrise residential, and is stable.

8. Louisville - A city the size of Louisville is doing damn good. New residential projects, restaurants, 4th Street Live, and various other things keep Kentucky's "downtown" afloat. Compared to near "tiered" cities like Dayton, Rochester, and Richmond, Louisville does a damn good job. But what else do you expect out of the state's largest (and only primate) city?

9. St. Louis - Improving would be the best word. I never really cared for the downtown area of St. Louis but it has come along way (esp. Washington Avenue). Though they have the Metrolink underground (a big plus), St. Louis seems like the attention is still away from downtown (though they are doing their best to correct this), which is still "a ways to go." Again, I expect it to improve in the near future and hopefully become more functional as years go on.

10. Columbus - Another "improving" downtown. Five years ago, downtown was abysmal. Literally, abysmal. Bland office parks situated along 8 lane "boulevards." But. Then. The. Arena District came along and literally sparked Columbus' candle. Thus, new projects, City Center Mall's rehabbing, surface lots going away (70% are currently going to be under development by 2010), Arena District expansion, RiverSouth developments, and of course, TWO full service urban grocers (Whole Foods and Kroger), the LRT line coming soon via Convention Center area, and Columbus will be a whole new downtown in 10-15 years.

11. Detroit - Talk about potential. Great architecture, fascinating layout, and slow improvements will keep Detroit's downtown alive. Detroit has a tougher situtation than most due to the whole suburban downtown x 10 thing but they are improving VERY much with Campus Martius, River Prominades, and other projects. Detroit I hope skyrockets to #2 on this list, as it honestly should be there.

12. Kansas City - Much like Columbus, Kansas City was plagued with parking lots and sterile downtown syndrome. But much like current Columbus, Kansas City has a lot of redevelopments (from what I saw last December) and has strong potential. KC and Columbus should be tied BUT the reason I put Columbus ahead of KC is that Columbus is atleast working/sorting through the transit options (re: LRT) currently.

13. Grand Rapids - Really surpringly dense downtown with some nice restaurants and decent waterfront. But on this list, it's last (but that isn't a bad thing; it's still a very nice downtown and arguably more vibrant than Detroit's).

At the risk of sounding redundant: Excellent list from someone who obvioulsy knows what he is talking about.

I do agree with the sentiment that Louisville and Pittsburgh are not midwestern cities, but otherwise, I cannot dispute the rankings of the true midwestern cities. Very good list.

[cwilson758]

The Kansan...I can't see how anyone who has been to all of the cities you listed would put Indy down so low. Of course, I live there and was one of teh city's planners for a number of years, but come one. Granted, Indy doesn't have the waterfront that the other places have, but Indy has good density, a number of retail opportunites, tons of art galleries, countless restaurants (funny how no one mentioned Indy's Mass Ave for galleries or restaurants), the CANAL, White River State Park, which house three world-class museums, and a great residential population. There is a lot more than just asthetics that make a downtown great.

Anyway, my ranking:

Chicago
Minneapolis
Indianapolis
Milwaukee
St Louis
Cincinnati
Columbus
Louisville (it's midwest to me)
KC

I have never been to downtown Cleveland, Detroit, or Grand Rapids

[ScraperDude]

I'm not sure if other cities are doing this but Columbus has a 75% to 100% tax abatement for residential property tax downtown.

[flatiron94]

Milwaukee : There was little to nothing at all going on in the downtown downtown area on the day that we were there. I believe it was a weekend day and the only thing missing was blowing tumbleweeds. So, as you can guess, not many good feelings.
I went downtown (minneapolis) with my dad on a saturday and it was very dead becaus all the stores wher closed for the weekend. That does not mean its dead all the time.

[JivecitySTL]

Perhaps an issue to raise is how to rank which elements of a downtown environment are most important. So out of these qualities, how would you rank them?

number of tall buildings
rail transit
density
historic fabric
presence of museums/cultural/educational institutions
sports presence
restaurant scene
streetlife (bustle, vendors, etc.)
retail options
availability of taxicabs
residential population
workforce population
major corporate presence
high-profile events
nightlife
Tourist attractions (besides museums, etc.)
anything else that may be a component of a downtown's image

[bangtoy]

Milwaukee > Stay for a day
St. Louis > Stay for a day
Minneapolis > Stay for a weekend
Indianapolis > Stay for at least a weekend
Pittsburgh > Stay for a week
Cleveland > Stay for a weekend
Columbus > Pass it by
Cincinnati > Stay for a day
Detroit > Stay for a day
Kansas City > Pass it by
Grand Rapids > Pass it by
Louisville > Stay for a day
Chicago > Stay forever and never leave

[HumbleHoosier]

I went downtown (minneapolis) with my dad on a saturday and it was very dead becaus all the stores wher closed for the weekend. That does not mean its dead all the time.

That's why I made a point of stipulating that I was not going to judge any city, but instead simply relay my personal experience in each downtown. Assuming that everybody would be able to figure out that one persons experience on one day in a downtown does not the entire downtown story make.

[cwilson758]

good point Jive! I certainly think that each could score high in a category and low in others.

[edsg25]

So in essence, what you're saying is that Chicagoans' opinions supercede the opinions of everyone else. You must realize how condescending and conceited that sounds, edsg. For someone who praises ColDay's responses for being "classy" I'd expect more from you.

90 miles away, damned right. that's all i meant. we know milwaukee than others do. don't worry, Jive, if it came to KC or Memphis, I'd defer to StL's opinion more than Chgo's

[Mplsuptown]

Why isn't St. Paul considered part of the 'Minneapolis' downtown area. It has it's own skyline, quite a nice one and bigger then many midwestern towns like Des Moines, Omaha etc.. It has many of the needs that people might crave like a NHL arena, Ordway Theater, Landmark Center, MN State Capitol, MN Science Center, History Musuem and Childrens Musuem. St. Paul also has some of the best historical buildings, again the Capitol and the St. Paul Cathedral.

Personally I never go to St. Paul (har har har) but what I'm trying to say is that the Minneapolis area has more than 1 real downtown (I'm not including suburban development). So if one finds something lacking in Minneapolis I bet you can find it there in St. Paul.

[JivecitySTL]

Milwaukee > Stay for a day
St. Louis > Stay for a day
Minneapolis > Stay for a weekend
Indianapolis > Stay for at least a weekend
Pittsburgh > Stay for a week
Cleveland > Stay for a weekend
Columbus > Pass it by
Cincinnati > Stay for a day
Detroit > Stay for a day
Kansas City > Pass it by
Grand Rapids > Pass it by
Louisville > Stay for a day
Chicago > Stay forever and never leave
lol. :runaway:

[samsonyuen]

Chicago
Minneapolis
Cincinnati
Milwaukee
Cleveland
St. Louis
Kansas City
Indianapolis
Columbus
Detroit

[HumbleHoosier]

First off Jive, the individual that started this thread already stipulated the criteria to be used in the ranking. Secondly, I would have different criteria depending upon whether I'm visiting a downtown or living in a downtown.

I didn't rank the downtowns, but if I were to rank them, here's how I'd prioritize Jive's categories for visiting and living:

VISITING

number of tall buildings 14th
rail transit 7th
density 8th
historic fabric 12th
presence of museums/cultural/educational institutions 1st
sports presence 4th
restaurant scene 5th
streetlife (bustle, vendors, etc.) 6th
retail options 10th
availability of taxicabs irrelevent
residential population 13th
workforce population irrelevent
major corporate presence irrelevent
high-profile events 11th
nightlife irrelevent
Tourist attractions (besides museums, etc.) 2nd
safe and clean 3rd
parks, monuments, public spaces 9th

LIVING

number of tall buildings irrelevent
rail transit 11th
density 14th
historic fabric 13th
presence of museums/cultural/educational institutions 7th
sports presence 6th
restaurant scene 8th
streetlife (bustle, vendors, etc.) 3rd
retail options 4th
availability of taxicabs irrelevent
residential population 2nd
workforce population irrelevent
major corporate presence 12th
high-profile events 9th
nightlife irrelevent
Tourist attractions (besides museums, etc.) 10th
clean and safe 1st
parks, monuments, public spaces 5th

[JT-MI]

My ranking:

1. Chicago
2. Minneapolis
3. Pittsburgh (only because they have that new mall development in their downtown)
4. Milwaukee
5. Cleveland
6. Detroit
7. Kansas City (will improve after they build that new mall downtown)
8. Grand Rapids
9. Des Moines

Did I forget any?

[gych]

Humble, I agree with your list, but if you live downtown, how can you consider nightlife irrelevant? Most people who move downtown do so to be closer to the "heart of it all." Nightlife, food, entertainment, a "big city" feel, to be able to walk to work, etc. If you are young, nightlife factors in. With that, I invite all of you to Louisville this weekend for Kentucky Derby. The bars are open til dawn, and downtown will be ALIVE with thousands of beautiful women, drinking and ready!!!

That said, I think these rankings are interesting, bc in Louisville, and many other cities on this list, downtown IS NOT the PREMIER urban neighborhood--YET. Its good, but especially in cities like Louisville, STL, and Cincy, it is their urban neighborhoods with coffee shops, wine bars, bookstores, clothing boutiques, restaurants, and theatres, that make them the premier urban environment over downtown. I think the only city on here whose PREMIER urban environment is downtown is Indianapolis. Downtown Indy is the main option for urban living there (and surrounding areas, since for some reason ppl in Indy separate Mass Ave from downtown even though they are within a half mile of each other). You could make an argument for Broadripple, but it really isnt that large of an area.

[HumbleHoosier]

Humble, I agree with your list, but if you live downtown, how can you consider nightlife irrelevant?

Because, unlike 95% of the people on this board, I am not a young kid. I'm a 36-year old man with a wife and three young children (10 years, 6 years and 7 months). So for me nightlife and clubs are irrelevent. The location of the club is not a factor since it's very rare for my wife and I to be able to head out on the town and go to a comedy club or something.

[EastSider]

I'm sorry that you feel insulted, but when we went to downtown Milwaukee it felt disconnected from the lakefront area. The museums and park along the lakefront were wonderful, but it was a decent walk to the actual downtown area, and when we got there it was like a different world. It just needs a little more connectivity and integration that's all I'm saying.

Nevermind, it'll be 5 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

[Steely Dan]

from my biased perspective, i dig milwaukee's downtown a lot, and a big part of that is probably due to the relationship of the city core to the lake and river waterfronts. it's a probably a category that is not as important to others, but city/waterfront relationships are a HUGE deal to me and milwaukee wins big points on that front.

milwaukee also just plain rules in general, so it has that going for it.... which is nice.

[JivecitySTL]

^Agreed. I think having a body of water juxtaposed to a cityscape is essential to a sense of place. I can't stand cities that aren't near some sort of water.

[Michi]

Just as a little bit of reference for the sake of Grand Rapids:

http://www.ohioskylines.com/OtherStates/Michigan/GrandRapids/GrandRapids9.jpg

http://www.ohioskylines.com/OtherStates/Michigan/GrandRapids/GrandRapids8.jpg

http://www.ohioskylines.com/OtherStates/Michigan/GrandRapids/GrandRapids41.jpg

http://www.ohioskylines.com/OtherStates/Michigan/GrandRapids/GrandRapids43.jpg

http://www.ohioskylines.com/OtherStates/Michigan/GrandRapids/GrandRapids11.jpg

http://www.ohioskylines.com/OtherStates/Michigan/GrandRapids/GrandRapids14.jpg

http://www.ohioskylines.com/OtherStates/Michigan/GrandRapids/GrandRapids5.JPG

http://www.ohioskylines.com/OtherStates/Michigan/GrandRapids/GrandRapids26.jpg

http://www.ohioskylines.com/OtherStates/Michigan/GrandRapids/GrandRapids21.jpg

http://www.ohioskylines.com/OtherStates/Michigan/GrandRapids/GrandRapids15.jpg
*curtesy of urbanohio.com

[hudkina]

The last one:
http://www.ohioskylines.com/OtherStates/Michigan/GrandRapids/GrandRapids15.jpg


I have to say that Grand Rapids is pretty under-rated as far as midwestern cities go.

[edsg25]

To be honest, I would probably value the opinions of Chicagoans (at least in ranking midwest downtowns) less than people from smaller midwest cities. The harsh reality is that our downtown is so far and away better than any other downtown in the region that our expectations are distorted and it is hard for most to view another midwestern city from any perspective other than "Chicago is much better."

besides that, I also mentioned that my sense that "Chicagoans know" was based on the superlatives heaped on downtown Chicago by others here. Jive may have missed that as being a crucial: if you accept that Chicago has a fabulous downtown, I believe that does add credence to our ability to evaluate a really good downtown.

[flatiron94]

My all time favorite downtown is Duluth MN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JivecitySTL]

besides that, I also mentioned that my sense that "Chicagoans know" was based on the superlatives heaped on downtown Chicago by others here. Jive may have missed that as being a crucial: if you accept that Chicago has a fabulous downtown, I believe that does add credence to our ability to evaluate a really good downtown.
I do believe Chicago has a fabulous downtown. It is everything a downtown should be and then some. But that doesn't mean people who don't live in Chicago are fucking retarded. We can recognize a healthy downtown as well as anyone else. I do not think Chicagoans are in any way more credible than people who live in other cities. For example, I work with someone who just moved here from Clive, Iowa (where she grew up-- podunk by definition). St. Louis is the biggest city she's ever lived in, but she has traveled around the world more than anyone I've ever met. She is probably more cosmopolitan than the average citizen of any city.

[bmc343]

Minneapolis is by far my favorite downtown.....seriously I went there with some friends from Chicago and they were speechless. They were also shocked how clean everything was. The nightlife is growing tremendously....the street was crowded 11PM-2AM....something for everyone...also the city has the most attractive people by far.

[denvernative1982]

Minneapolis is by far my favorite downtown.....seriously I went there with some friends from Chicago and they were speechless. They were also shocked how clean everything was. The nightlife is growing tremendously....the street was crowded 11PM-2AM....something for everyone...also the city has the most attractive people by far.

LOL, Minneapolis attractive people. Where have you been? I think Columbus has the most attractive people in the midwest by far. But that is a story for a different thread.

[JB_Gold Coast]

Minneapolis is by far my favorite downtown.....seriously I went there with some friends from Chicago and they were speechless. They were also shocked how clean everything was. The nightlife is growing tremendously....the street was crowded 11PM-2AM....something for everyone...also the city has the most attractive people by far.

Minneapolis has a great downtown, IMO it is second in the midwest to Chicago. However, I would love to know how it is possible that someone from Chicago went to Minneapolis and they were speechless with awe when they saw the downtown. We're they from Chicago or were they from Barrington?

Saying Minneapolis has the most attractive people by far is puzzling to me. Saying any particlular place in the midwest has the most attractive people by far would be puzzling. You simply can't measure that.

[Wu-Gambino]

^ It must be the OSU students.

[Steely Dan]

Minneapolis is by far my favorite downtown.....seriously I went there with some friends from Chicago and they were speechless. They were also shocked how clean everything was.


LOL!

any chicagoan who's speechless upon visiting downtown minneapolis ain't a real chicagoan, they're most likely dupagers who co-opt a chicago identity, but don't know jack shit about the city. minneapolis is great, truly one of the finer midwest cities, but it's asinine to believe that a real chicagoan would be speechless upon experiencing minneapolis' downtown.



EDIT: JB beat me too it.

[denvernative1982]

Minneapolis: Clean albeit boring Downtown. I always feel like I am walking amongst a bunch of boring accountant types down in Minneapolis. Really no diversity at all in the people in downtown Minneapolis, the only non-accountant type people are at 6th or 7th and Nicollet trying to catch a bus.


Louisville has the most architecturally attractive downtown by far, tons of beautiful brick buildings. Hardly any foot traffic though and it closes down early. Rather clean however, safety is lacking and its way too spread out.

Dayton: Other than the buses on trolley polls, they need to do something with that downtown. Dayton has a dangerous, seedy downtown just gives me creeps. They had a baseball game though one time I went through Dayton, do they have a AAA team or something?

Cincinnati: No wonder that five stay restaurant is moving out. I mean seriously Cincinnati has a boring, vacant downtown. Main Strausse in Convington has more than downtown Cincinnati. I felt safe though and it seems fairly clean.

Columbus: Best neighborhoods in the midwest (outside chicago) yet such a boring downtown but that was before I left in October 2003. In 2003, it was dead other than people trying to catch a COTA bus everything was dead in downtown Columbus. The retail vacancy rate was also out of control, man have they got that high vacancy rate down at all.

Des Moines: Whoa, so much construction you cant even walk down the street. The demographic that Des Moines has will always make a boring downtown though. You can almost feel the prosperity by day in downtown Des Moines though.

Kansas City: Nice buildings, I love the Kansas City skyline. I however thought it was very dead downtown the weekend I was there. Terrible library, they are building a huge new one though. That neighborhood around 38th and Broadway (westport) or something was awesome though, better than downtown.

Indianapolis: That massive mall sure does better business than Columbus city center, it was packed. They had a sterile shockingly clean downtown (not unlike Minneapolis) and pedestrians even know when the lights are gonna change because it shows you how many secounds you have left when you cross the intersection. I think the mall has killed off alot of downtown Indianapolis potential.

[JivecitySTL]

^LOLOLOL!

[denvernative1982]

What?!? No Omaha? Seriously we have 850,000 people on our own and anthoer 280,000 (Lincoln) surrounded my Omaha so that at least 1,113,000 people and our DT has all of the above mentioned things. It probably just won't be an official CSA until 2010.

This is downtown Omaha.

FOR RENT, FOR LEASE, FOR SALE, RENT ME PLEASE, IM BEGGING YOU LEASE ME. I AM DESPERATE BUY ME.

Seriously, I dont know what the problem with Omaha. A very well off city that is very middle-class just has downtown that just feels empty.

I understand that they have a couple thousand people living along 16th street in those high rise buildings. But lets be honest the downtown retails sector along 16th street seems dead.

It seems like 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th are just totally dead. All they have is tons of empty store fronts with for lease signs.

Why on earth should 16th street with all the people living in those apartments, be so dead? The store fronts are vacant except for the little 7-11 type store and the coffee shop under the Orpheum.

Every time I go downtown Omaha it takes the breath away looking at the vacant and boarded-up buildings.

Omaha has nice buildings though. Those apartment buildings on 16th are beautiful. Even this women visting from Buffalo sayed they were beautiful!!

[Azn_chi_boi]

Minneapolis: Clean albeit boring Downtown. I always feel like I am walking amongst a bunch of boring accountant types down in Minneapolis. Really no diversity at all in the people in downtown Minneapolis, except for some of the low-lifes (like me) waiting for some buses.

Boring??

Louisville has the most architecturally attractive downtown by far, tons of beautiful brick buildings. Hardly any foot traffic though and it closes down early. Rather clean however, safety is lacking and its way too spread out.



Dayton: Other than the buses on trolley polls, they need to do something with that downtown. Dayton has a dangerous, seedy downtown just gives me creeps. They had a baseball game though one time I went through Dayton, do they have a AAA team or something.

I am not sure I never went to Dayton.

Cincinnati: No wonder that five stay restaurant is moving out. I mean serious Cincinnati has a boring, vacant downtown. Main Strausse in Convington has more than downtown Cincinnati. I felt safe though and it seems fairly clean.

5 stay restuarnt?? Whats that? You mean 5-star?

Columbus: Best neighborhoods in the midwest (outside chicago) yet such a boring downtown but that was before I left in October 2003. In 2003, it was other than people trying to catch a COTA bus everything was dead in downtown Columbus. The retail vacancy rate was also out of control, man have they got that high vacancy rate down at all.

Des Moines: Whoa, so much construction you cant even walk down the street. The demographic that Des Moines has will always make a boring downtown though. You can almost feel the prosperity by day in downtown Des Moines though.
LOL...


My opinion is in bold.

[edsg25]

I do believe Chicago has a fabulous downtown. It is everything a downtown should be and then some. But that doesn't mean people who don't live in Chicago are fucking retarded. We can recognize a healthy downtown as well as anyone else. I do not think Chicagoans are in any way more credible than people who live in other cities. For example, I work with someone who just moved here from Clive, Iowa (where she grew up-- podunk by definition). St. Louis is the biggest city she's ever lived in, but she has traveled around the world more than anyone I've ever met. She is probably more cosmopolitan than the average citizen of any city.

I defer to Clive and even Clyde, if necessary.

[edsg25]

But that doesn't mean people who don't live in Chicago are fucking retarded. We can recognize a healthy downtown as well as anyone else. I do not think Chicagoans are in any way more credible than people who live in other cities.

yes, it does mean Chicagoans can recognize a healthy downtown better than others. We are born with the dominant healthy downtown recongnition gene which gives us superior insight into the ability to identify and rank healthy downtowns. The skill is further enhanced by eating healthy portions of Chicago style hot dogs (its the green in the relish that seems to do the trick),not to mention scarfing down pan-fulls of deep dish pizza (the full layer of sausage does the trick here)

[edsg25]

My all time favorite downtown is Duluth MN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I tend to look at it this way: Duluth, MN, may be a boring place for a downtown, but Duluth, GA, is a most exciting place for a wedding!

[denvernative1982]

I think going through downtown Minneapolis is more of a chore for me. It doesnt interest me at all. They have some 3 star hotels, some chain stores and some people in business attire walking the streets. Wow, how interesting.

[STLgasm]

denveralternative, you haven't degraded St. Louis's downtown yet, what gives?

[courtland]

St.Louis : Made the mistake of going to Union Station with it's mostly closed shops and quite a few gang members or at least gang member wanna-bes. So outside of downtown we had good vibes, but downtown didn't leave us wanting more.


you need to come again, there is no longer a gang perception at Union station. there never was a gang problem...just perception. that has been cleaned up.

[JivecitySTL]

yes, it does mean Chicagoans can recognize a healthy downtown better than others. We are born with the dominant healthy downtown recongnition gene which gives us superior insight into the ability to identify and rank healthy downtowns. The skill is further enhanced by eating healthy portions of Chicago style hot dogs (its the green in the relish that seems to do the trick),not to mention scarfing down pan-fulls of deep dish pizza (the full layer of sausage does the trick here)
lol, but since I'm not from Chicago, my opinion isn't worth shit. So if I say Chicago has a healthy, vibrant downtown, the opposite is most likely true. You see, since I didn't grow up in Chicago, I don't really have any notion of what a happening downtown is. I am inferior because I am not a native Chicagoan. :puke:

[STLgasm]

He was joking, Jive.

[EastSider]

It's nice to see some good comments about downtown Milwaukee, right on.

Chicago has an amazing downtown, of course, that's obvious. I've always been a fan of St. Louis's as well, gritty(in the good way) historic density is always nice to see. Minneapolis has that clean modern downtown feel that's always refreshing, especially in our region. Chicago, Minneapolis, St. Louis, and Milwaukee are my favorite, but I some of that is biased...

[EastSider]

Also, Chicagoans "natural" talent at knowing and seeing a better downtown is crap. It doesn't matter where you live, or where you grew up, education and gut feeling play into it more than pure citizienship, come on now.

[the pope]

I'm not sure if other cities are doing this but Columbus has a 75% to 100% tax abatement for residential property tax downtown.

detroit and cleveland both have fairly expansive programs

[JivecitySTL]

He was joking, Jive.
I know Tweeters, I was joking right back.

[Jeff]

Id like to know more about the history of the downtown lakefront in Milwaulkee as is sort of the "behind" the downtown, which really focuses on the Miwaulkee River. I know the area around the mouth of said river was industrial/harbor oriented but how far north did that extend?

I know the lakefront below the bluffs is mostly parkland, and that extends past the War Memorial & "Caltrava" to that festival park, but I wonder what the area used to be.

[Markitect]

Id like to know more about the history of the downtown lakefront in Milwaulkee as is sort of the "behind" the downtown, which really focuses on the Miwaulkee River. I know the area around the mouth of said river was industrial/harbor oriented but how far north did that extend?

I know the lakefront below the bluffs is mostly parkland, and that extends past the War Memorial & "Caltrava" to that festival park, but I wonder what the area used to be.

Historically, the main industrial riverfront through downtown went from the mouth of the Milwaukee River at Lake Michigan upstream to about North Avenue--a distance of about three miles in length. This was because in the early pioneer days, the river offered a safe haven along which to dock boats, because such vessels were more vulnerable if docked on the lake. The river also served as a power source for many of the industries along its banks.

Thus, contrary to what the uninformed might think, downtown Milwaukee has never been oriented on the lakefront; it has always been oriented along the river (the center of downtown is where Wisconsin Avenue crosses the Milwaukee River) and grew outward from there in all directions.

As the city grew, industrial districts also grew up along the banks of Milwaukee's two other rivers--the Kinnickinnic on the south, and the Menomonee on the west. The present-day Port of Milwaukee area--known as Jones Island, between the lake and the Kinnickinnic River, beneath the Hoan Bridge--was built much later, during the 1920s-50s. By that time, commercial shipping was modernized enough (i.e. no more wooden schooners), and breakwaters had been constructed to protect any docking activity on the lakefront itself, in that area.

Originally, the Lake Michigan shoreline was pretty much right at the bottom of the bluffs. During the late-1800s, portions of the shoreline were extended with landfill out into the water to accomodate railroad tracks and other facilities for the Chicago & North Western Railroad (near the end of Wisconsin Avenue/War Memorial/Art Museum). Later still, the lakefront was extended out into the water again for an airstrip and ferry terminal (present site of Summerfest grounds/Pier Wisconsin). And in the 1920s-40s the lakefront was filled again to create parkland (Veterans Park, McKinley Marina, lower parts of Lake Park).

[KM1410]

I think the mall has killed off alot of downtown Indianapolis potential.

I can always count on denvernative for a good laugh.

[KM1410]

1. Chicago
2. Minneapolis
3. Pittsburgh
4. Indianapolis
5. Cincinnati
6. Milwaukee
7. Louisville
8. Saint Louis
9. Columbus
10. Cleveland
11. Kansas City
12. Detroit
13. Grand Rapids

[The anti-cheesehead]

minneapolis is great, truly one of the finer midwest cities, but it's asinine to believe that a real chicagoan would be speechless upon experiencing minneapolis' downtown.


They could be speechless if they had no idea what Minneapolis is like before visiting.

Most people aren't city freaks like people on this site and have no idea what Minneapolis is like. I'd bet the average person wouldn't be able to recognize the Minneapolis skyline. Some people probably don't even know that Minneapolis has a skyline.

People that work for the same company that I do (which is headquartered in Minneapolis) in other markets are often surprised the first time they come to Minneapolis because they didn't know what to expect. That includes people from Seattle, Portland, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Reno, the Bay Area, and Denver.

[sfhoya]

They could be speechless if they had no idea what Minneapolis is like before visiting.

Most people aren't city freaks like people on this site and have no idea what Minneapolis is like. I'd bet the average person wouldn't be able to recognize the Minneapolis skyline. Some people probably don't even know that Minneapolis has a skyline.

People that work for the same company that I do (which is headquartered in Minneapolis) in other markets are often surprised the first time they come to Minneapolis because they didn't know what to expect. That includes people from Seattle, Portland, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Reno, the Bay Area, and Denver.

You can put John King, the San Francisco Chronicle architecture columnist, in that category of people. He went to Minneapolis a couple weeks ago to review the new Walker Art Center building and was impressed enough that he decided to write a second article on the the city itself.

Here it is:

Great architecture, clean streets, culture -- it must be Minneapolis

John King

Thursday, April 28, 2005



Everything I know about cities was confirmed this month by a visit to Minneapolis:

Street life thrives if you give it a chance.

The nation's 47th-largest city is known for the Twins baseball team, Mary Tyler Moore -- and an intricate web of skyways, second-floor connections that link more than 50 downtown blocks. Skyways were even immortalized in a punk ballad by the Replacements, though native son Prince has yet to weigh in.

Hermetically sealed tunnels in the air make sense when the nearby lakes freeze over so thickly that fishermen park their pickups on them. But during my visit most of the skywalks seemed empty, unlike the outdoor seating at the cafes and restaurants along Nicollet Mall, which, despite its name, is a public thoroughfare open to the elements.

Convenience isn't nearly as convenient as it seems.

Skywalks are great for getting from point A to point B, or from my hotel to Marshall Field's department store (ah, the lure of Frango Mints). But when I pushed my luck and embarked on a seven-block journey to the convention center, all bets were off; no two blocks are laid out the same, since the system was cobbled together over the decades.

With streets, you can see where you are. Even when you're lost.

The more the merrier.

On or near Nicollet Mall, you'll find department stores and used-book shops, historic theaters and corporate headquarters, City Hall and a 19,000- seat arena -- plus new plazas, new residential buildings and a new streetcar line. In other words, plenty is going on, and that's the ticket to urban vitality.

Culture adds spice.

I flew east to review the upsized Walker Art Center, a cultural institution that navigates the murky waters of contemporary art with blissful disregard for what New York or Los Angeles thinks. The architecture and the collection were great -- you'll never see Robert Motherwell's paintings presented with more insight or better lighting -- and it's a 15-minute walk from the arena.

Narrow streets are better than wide ones.

One key to Nicollet Mall's success is that the sidewalks are as wide as prairies; buses are allowed in the middle, but cars are forbidden. This allows ample room for al fresco seating, along with abstract sculptures of fish and fowl.

By contrast, everything I've read about the Walker Art Center stresses how it is flanked by the 11-acre Minneapolis Sculpture Garden. But in reality, they seem worlds apart, because the garden and the museum are separated by a five-lane roadway. Less asphalt, please!

Play up the local angles.

Minneapolis exists because of the Mississippi River, flourishing as an inland port that shipped lumber while using the water as an energy source to grind enough flour for 12 million loaves of bread a day.

Now, the economy hinges on more ephemeral things -- Target has 6,000 employees downtown, in addition to the ones wearing red T-shirts at their store on Nicollet -- so the riverside has been reclaimed as parkland. And a massive 1880 mill that produced flour for Betty Crocker et al reopened in 2003 as the Mill City Museum.

There's a down-home feel to recent buildings as well. Yes, some of the newish loft apartments are as wallpaper thin as anything in the Bay Area. But the better ones are cloaked in Kasota Stone, a local limestone that adds indigenous warmth to the downtown terrain.

Good architecture is good architecture, no matter the style.

The 775-foot-tall IDS Center is an austere Philip Johnson masterpiece from 1973, all modern lines and faceted glass. Cesar Pelli's Wells Fargo Center from 1988, a few feet shorter, reads like a homage to the 1930s with its golden Kasota walls and sleek setbacks. A block apart, they look nothing alike, but they're two of the best office towers this side of Chicago.

Change is good.

Not all change, mind you -- it'd be nice to remove some clunkers from the skyline and some parking garages from the streets. Fewer franchised retailers would be nice, too. But there's a bustle here because of the fresh uses in the mix, and that's better than the moribund self-righteousness that sets in when every new idea gets shot down.

Cleanliness counts.

Is this the Midwest or what? There's hardly any litter anywhere. The buses and streetcars glisten. Some plazas look as if they're scrubbed each day.

Cosmetic? Perhaps. Except that the quality of a place should be embodied in the fine-grain details, not just the sweeping views. And that means taking pride in the day-to-day appearance of where you live your lives.

Women know best.

The first night in Minneapolis, I dined at Cafe Brenda on walleye and wild rice, which, with blueberry muffins, constitute the trifecta of local cuisine. A stroll past sleepy blocks of warehouses evolving from red-light district to residential neighborhood led me to the banks of the Mississippi. Walking along grassy parkland toward the Falls of St. Anthony, I had the place to myself -- except for one woman jogging casually past me toward the horizon.

When a city feels safe enough that a woman jogs along, alone, at dusk ... somebody is doing something right.

Place appears on Thursdays. E-mail John King, who's been humming "Big River" to himself for weeks, at jking@sfchronicle.com.

Page E - 1

[The anti-cheesehead]

Wow, someone from San Fransisco talking about Minneapolis having culture.

You would've never guessed after reading some of the garbage that's spewed from certain jealous people on this site.

[Steely Dan]

They could be speechless if they had no idea what Minneapolis is like before visiting.

Most people aren't city freaks like people on this site and have no idea what Minneapolis is like. I'd bet the average person wouldn't be able to recognize the Minneapolis skyline. Some people probably don't even know that Minneapolis has a skyline.

People that work for the same company that I do (which is headquartered in Minneapolis) in other markets are often surprised the first time they come to Minneapolis because they didn't know what to expect. That includes people from Seattle, Portland, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Reno, the Bay Area, and Denver.

i am not saying that people wouldn't be impressed or perhaps even pleasantly surprised upon first visiting downtown minneapolis (minneaplis is a great city and certainly one of the best in the midwest). i was merely countering what i believed to be the implication of bmc343 that a group of chicagoans were speechless upon visiting downtown minneapolis in relation to downtown chicago. minneapolis may be all kinds of wonderful things, but let's be honest for a moment, downtown minneapolis is not going to stack up to downtown chicago in the eyes of a chicagoan. that's not a knock on minneapolis, dudes, just the truth.

maybe that's not what bmc343 was implying, and i, along with JB, misread his post. if that's the case then no harm, no foul. minneapolis is a great city, and we can amicably leave it at that :)

[LouisvilleJake]

If I skip your city, it is because I have never been to it's downtown, hence cannot say how well I like or disliked it.

And the ranking are not meant to be hey, this city is one ahead of this city, hence it must be leagues better, I actually think many of these cities are on fairly equal footing...but oh well.....

1. Chicago - Doesn't even have to be explained. Really.
2. Indianapolis - Clean, vibrant, plenty to see at do, retail
3. Milwaukee - great riverfront/lakefront, dense, great architecture
4. Louisville - Clean, great architecture, parks, great nightlife
5. Cincinnati - historic, retail, lots of growth potential
6. Pittsburgh - DENSE, lots of retail, but I had an eery feeling of the area sliding down before it came back up...
7. Cleveland - So much was lost, but it seems to really be coming back with a passion, great towers, great lakefront
8. St Louis - Arch is amazing, gritty, historic, needs lots more work however
9. Columbus - Very bland office towers, all the activity is focused off of downtown, needs to pick up the pace
10. Kansas City - Bland. That is all I have to say.
11. Detroit - Refrain from commentary.

[The anti-cheesehead]

but let's be honest for a moment, downtown minneaplois is not going to stack up to downtown chicago in the eyes of a chicagoan. that's not a knock on minneapolis dudes, just the truth.


Yeah, lets be honest. Most people have no idea what Minneapolis is like, even Chicagoans.

The guy never said that Minneapolis blows Chicago away. He said the people were speechless, which is believable if they were expecting something like Madison or Des Moines. I'm not kidding, I've met many people who thought Minneapolis was on that level.

[JB_Gold Coast]

i am not saying that people wouldn't be impressed or perhaps even pleasantly surprised upon first visiting downtown minneapolis (minneaplis is a great city and certainly one of the best in the midwest). i was merely countering what i believed to be the implication of bmc343 that a group of chicagoans were speechless upon visiting downtown minneapolis in relation to downtown chicago. minneapolis may be all kinds of wonderful things, but let's be honest for a moment, downtown minneapolis is not going to stack up to downtown chicago in the eyes of a chicagoan. that's not a knock on minneapolis, dudes, just the truth.

maybe that's not what bmc343 was implying, and i, along with JB, misread his post. if that's the case then no harm, no foul. minneapolis is a great city, and we can amicably leave it at that :)

I think we both said downtown Minneapolis was easily the 2nd best downtown in the Midwest. What I thought the 'speechless' quote implied was that a group of Chicagoans went to Minneapolis and were simply blown away by the downtown...in a "we've never seen anything like this before" kind of way. I found that amusing.

If bmc343 was simply saying that they were speechless because Minneapolis vastly exceeded their expectations, then that is a different story.

[Steely Dan]

The guy never said that Minneapolis blows Chicago away. He said the people were speechless, which is believable if they were expecting something like Madison or Des Moines. I'm not kidding, I've met many people who thought Minneapolis was on that level.

try rereading my post there, chief. i CLEARLY stated at the end that i may have misinterpretted what the dude was saying. i thought he was implying something which he may well not have intended to imply.

[JB_Gold Coast]

Minneapolis: Clean albeit boring Downtown. I always feel like I am walking amongst a bunch of boring accountant types down in Minneapolis. Really no diversity at all in the people in downtown Minneapolis, the only non-accountant type people are at 6th or 7th and Nicollet trying to catch a bus.


Louisville has the most architecturally attractive downtown by far, tons of beautiful brick buildings. Hardly any foot traffic though and it closes down early. Rather clean however, safety is lacking and its way too spread out.

Dayton: Other than the buses on trolley polls, they need to do something with that downtown. Dayton has a dangerous, seedy downtown just gives me creeps. They had a baseball game though one time I went through Dayton, do they have a AAA team or something?

Cincinnati: No wonder that five stay restaurant is moving out. I mean seriously Cincinnati has a boring, vacant downtown. Main Strausse in Convington has more than downtown Cincinnati. I felt safe though and it seems fairly clean.

Columbus: Best neighborhoods in the midwest (outside chicago) yet such a boring downtown but that was before I left in October 2003. In 2003, it was dead other than people trying to catch a COTA bus everything was dead in downtown Columbus. The retail vacancy rate was also out of control, man have they got that high vacancy rate down at all.

Des Moines: Whoa, so much construction you cant even walk down the street. The demographic that Des Moines has will always make a boring downtown though. You can almost feel the prosperity by day in downtown Des Moines though.

Kansas City: Nice buildings, I love the Kansas City skyline. I however thought it was very dead downtown the weekend I was there. Terrible library, they are building a huge new one though. That neighborhood around 38th and Broadway (westport) or something was awesome though, better than downtown.

Indianapolis: That massive mall sure does better business than Columbus city center, it was packed. They had a sterile shockingly clean downtown (not unlike Minneapolis) and pedestrians even know when the lights are gonna change because it shows you how many secounds you have left when you cross the intersection. I think the mall has killed off alot of downtown Indianapolis potential.


I wish you could see the utter disinterest on my face and the sudden reaction to avert my eyes to something else whenver I see one of your posts. Its basically the same reaction that comes across my face when I'm watching a Cubs game and a commercial for "Gilmore Girls" or "Smallville" pops up on the screen.

[The anti-cheesehead]

If bmc343 was simply saying that they were speechless because Minneapolis vastly exceeded their expectations, then that is a different story.

I took it as being blown away because it exceeded expectations because if "a group of Chicagoans went to Minneapolis and were simply blown away by the downtown...in a "we've never seen anything like this before" kind of way." doesn't make sense, so I ruled that explanation out.

[ColDayMan]

Dayton has a dangerous, seedy downtown just gives me creeps.

HAHAHAHAHA!!

Oy vey. So dangerous...oh so dangerous...

[ColDayMan]

Cincinnati: No wonder that five stay restaurant is moving out. I mean seriously Cincinnati has a boring, vacant downtown. Main Strausse in Convington has more than downtown Cincinnati. I felt safe though and it seems fairly clean.

Oh man LOL!! Mainstrasse (spell it right, first) is wonderful, don't get me wrong, but if you had to pick a neighborhood that can compete with downtown in vibrancy, do NOT pick Mainstrasse, because you would be incorrect. Downtown...vacant? I wish. Then we could put a Cheesecake Factory in it. Sadly, the downtown is actually very much occupied. But then again, I forget, you are simply a mocking fool.

Again, oy vey.

[JivecitySTL]

How about we post ONE pic of each of our cities, showing the meat and potatoes of our downtowns? Who would like to start?

[The anti-cheesehead]

How about we post ONE pic of each of our cities, showing the meat and potatoes of our downtowns? Who would like to start?

Lol, you don't want anyone to fill the whole page?

If you want to see lots of Minneapolis pics, you can click on the link in my signature.

Here's the best picture though IMO. I didn't take this one:

http://img32.echo.cx/img32/9144/over62and559009sx.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

[Jeff]

Dayton has a dangerous, seedy downtown just gives me creeps.

HAHAHAHAHA!!

Oy vey. So dangerous...oh so dangerous...


ROFTL...ya gotta be tough to live in the Sin City of SW Ohio....

Does anyone remember the old WKRP in Cincinnati sitcom?

Les Nessman (the geeky weatherman) is going to visit his mother in Dayton.
ANDY TRAVIS (to Les): "Be Carefull! Dayton can be dangerous after dark!"

[sfhoya]

http://www.homestead.com/mikempls/files/New_Web_Site_Pics/Resize_of_DSCN0307.JPG

[KCN]

http://www.syphon.com/personal/scott/pix/night2/HPIM1407.JPG

[EastSider]

http://people.msoe.edu/~reyer/mke/1955a.jpg

[Soulbrotha]

I went to Saint Louis last year. It was alot like Louisville IMO, especially the river front lol

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/33567923/large.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/38727486/original.jpg
a lot of trash, and branches.

As far a retail goes, I didn't see anything in Downtown St.Louis that blew me away, same with Louisville. In St.Louis we did most of out eating and shopping in U-City.

That Bush stadium is a beast though.

[edsg25]

lol, but since I'm not from Chicago, my opinion isn't worth shit. So if I say Chicago has a healthy, vibrant downtown, the opposite is most likely true. You see, since I didn't grow up in Chicago, I don't really have any notion of what a happening downtown is. I am inferior because I am not a native Chicagoan. :puke:

the Chicago blood transfusion is supposed to give a 58% chance of transferring the benefits of the downtown rating gene, although it does not work for those with type O blood.

Technically those not from Chicago who observe that Chicago has a great downtown tend to be correct 99.8% of the time although their perceptions on other cities is only 38.7%. I do have the complete manual, if you're interested.

[edsg25]

ROFTL...ya gotta be tough to live in the Sin City of SW Ohio....

Does anyone remember the old WKRP in Cincinnati sitcom?

Les Nessman (the geeky weatherman) is going to visit his mother in Dayton.
ANDY TRAVIS (to Les): "Be Carefull! Dayton can be dangerous after dark!"

before or after he dropped live turkeys from a plane as part of a Thanksgiving promotion?

[Soulbrotha]

Lol, you don't want anyone to fill the whole page?

If you want to see lots of Minneapolis pics, you can click on the link in my signature.

Here's the best picture though IMO. I didn't take this one:

http://img32.echo.cx/img32/9144/over62and559009sx.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
you win lol...


ok heres some pics of Louisville..

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/39731019/original.jpg

Main St. Louisville has the 2nd largest collection of Cast Iron building, Only Soho in NYC has more.

http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/kentucky/louisville/castiron/hart2.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/30785452/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/30785452/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/30785453/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/30785456/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/30785457/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/30785469/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/30785503/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/30785448.jpg

Stop misunderestimating Louisville! :)

[gaviidae]

Louisville certainly has wonderful historic architecture.

[Minneapolitan]

downtown minneapolis is not going to stack up to downtown chicago in the eyes of a chicagoan. that's not a knock on minneapolis, dudes, just the truth.

I think his point was just the opposite. They are NOT stacking it up against Chicago's downtown. They were just taking the city in for what it is in itself.

No matter where one is from, if he/she has formed certain stereotyped opinions about a city that are UTTERLY SHATTERED upon visiting, it can be quite the enlightening experience. Again, no matter where youre from.
Like this --->:eek2:

[DTO Luv]

Omaha.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/DTOLuv/Omaha1/CopyofCopyof100_3046.jpg

This is a good shot showing the old buildings (left center), the newer ones, rowhouse construction (bottom right), the NATIONS largest urban arts colony the Bemis Center (stone building with "pictured" glass windows), and the back of Omaha's Old Market.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/DTOLuv/Copyof100_2917.jpg

The Bemis Center.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/DTOLuv/Copyof000_0004.jpg

[ManageMich]

Very nice Louisville pics. What would a grassy median and a few street side foliage do to that last streetscape pic? I think it would it would bring it in and give it a SoHo feel.

[Toggie]

WOW that glassy building in Omaha looks exactly like the AMEX client service center in Minneapolis
Omaha http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=301566
Minneapolis http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=173411

[DTO Luv]

Hell yeah they do.

[looksee]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/looksee/miller.bmpYou've clearly imbibed way too much of the Miller Valley atmosphere.

The atmosphere in this pic (of Milwaukee) btw, is from the lake, not the breweries:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/looksee/foggywaukee.jpg

[EastSider]

^I guess your pic is better..., thanks for sharing. Honestly though I've never seen that picture before, did you take it?

[looksee]

^I guess your pic is better..., thanks for sharing. Honestly though I've never seen that picture before, did you take it?No, unfortunately. I probably cribbed it from one of the MKE thread regulars quite awhile back. Would have given credit if I'd kept a record.

[JivecitySTL]

I went to Saint Louis last year. It was alot like Louisville IMO, especially the river front lol]
a lot of trash, and branches.

As far a retail goes, I didn't see anything in Downtown St.Louis that blew me away, same with Louisville.