GaWC Inventory of 10 "Alpha World Cities"

[leftcoaster]

Interesting link to a Wikipedia page that lists, with tons of info, the world's 10 "Alpha World Cities" from the Globalization and World Cities Study Group & Network at England's Loughborough University. Their facts and criteria are very interesting and hard to argue with.

The ten cities are:
London
New York
Paris
Tokyo
Chicago
Frankfurt
Hong Kong
Los Angeles
Milan
Singapore

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_city

Full of fun facts, pix and demographic arcania. :)

[Locust]

I am sorry... as as you must know LA is in the alpha world... but not a city representative of such...

Yes, I've been to LA several times... and I know what I am talking about...

[bay_area]

When it comes to amenities and things to do-LA is easily an Alpha City.

Its not about packaging when it comes to LA. Its about what you can see, do, buy etc.

[pricemazda]

GaWC is world reknowned and highly respected, it is some list that a bunch of guys have made up for an internet top ten. If you follow the link and read the criteria its pretty fair going.

[hudkina]

But isn't it a London-centric list? Basically all they did was take a bunch of companies in three or four specific fields that had an office in multiple cities (particularly London) and ranked the cities on whether or not they had an office.

[Sitback]

Either way at the end of the day London, New York and Tokyo are the only three TRUE alpha cities.

End of story.

[[Everywhen]]

wikipedia? lol.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

never trust sources from that page....its the worst page you could ever get information from

singapore? give me a break

[bnmaddict]

Either way at the end of the day London, New York and Tokyo are the only three TRUE alpha cities.

End of story.

Each time, I'm amazed to see those Brits trying to take Paris off the Alpha world cities' list, and adding a dumb "End of story" ... :)

Everybody knows that Paris and London are on the same level (except some brits who seem to live in another world...)

[Dampyre]

Each time, I'm amazed to see those Brits trying to take Paris off the Alpha world cities' list, and adding a dumb "End of story" ... :)

Everybody knows that Paris and London are on the same level (except some brits who seem to live in another world...)

London packs more power than Paris. I guess us folk here in the Midwestern US don't know it either. :lol:

[bnmaddict]

London packs more power than Paris. I guess us folk here in the Midwestern US don't know it either. :lol:

Well I'm not really surprise that you, US midwesterner, don't know it! :)

[hudkina]

Yes, because we're so uncultured, unlike the French.;)

[Justadude]

After having read most of the threads dealing with the status of the "big 4", I think it's fair to say that Paris' place with London, NYC and Tokyo is in peril. It has really begun to slip behind in its worldwide influence compared to those three.

[bnmaddict]

Yes, because we're so uncultured, unlike the French.;)

That's sooo true! :D

Ok, I was dumb to say that...

Now, being serious, many british try to make us believe there's a real gap between London and Paris, it's just false, economically, those 2 cities are very close, none of them have more overall influence than the other. Except in the financial field where London is ahead, they are very close.

[DetoX]

For me NY, LD, Paris and Tokyo are the TOP 4 Alpha cities.. no question about it.

And about those British - haven`t you all notice that they are talking SSDD ? :]

[Dampyre]

Well I'm not really surprise that you, US midwesterner, don't know it! :)


Ironically, I've been to Paris but not London. Nice city, even if the French can be a bit obnoxious and rude. What's up with that?

Anyway, Paris is a major power but I do think London is ahead.

[bnmaddict]

For me NY, LD, Paris and Tokyo are the TOP 4 Alpha cities.. no question about it.

And about those British - haven`t you all notice that they are talking SSDD ? :]

Yep, some of their favorites sentences: "By 2012, we'll have more Skyscrapers in London than in Frankfurt and Paris combined!!!"; "By 2025, UK's GDP will be higher than German's GDP!!!"... ("By 2050, London will have more skyscrapers than NYC and HK combined and will be the one and only center of the world!!!") :)

[Citrus-Fruit]

Fucking hell, the amount of people trying to knock the British have a real problem. Either there being shit stabbed or thier just so far stuck up thier own ass to realise the truth.

Now, just go with the thread, and all your ignoranious morons who are trying to get one over each other shut up ... Its starting to get really boring.

[bnmaddict]

Fucking hell, the amount of people trying to knock the British have a real problem. Either there being shit stabbed or thier just so far stuck up thier own ass to realise the truth.

Now, just go with the thread, and all your ignoranious morons who are trying to get one over each other shut up ... Its starting to get really boring.

Your "truth" is as virtual as those images of Canary Wharf in 2012. :)

And you're one of those Brits I was talking about, Citrus-Fruit (It's amazing how your dumb arrogant sentences remind me those of BirminghamCulture...).

Amazingly, I do agree with something in your stupid post, it's high time to go back to the thread.

[Citrus-Fruit]

Your "truth" is as virtual as those images of Canary Wharf in 2012. :)

And you're one of those Brits I was talking about, Citrus-Fruit (It's amazing how your dumb arrogant sentences remind me those of BirminghamCulture...).

Amazingly, I do agree with something in your stupid post, it's high time to go back to the thread.


Oi mouth, you're the biggest culprit on here, now shut it and get back on track.

if you look back its you that took this thread of its rails, now the least you could do is put it back on.

[bnmaddict]

Oi mouth, you're the biggest culprit on here, now shut it and get back on track.

if you look back its you that took this thread of its rails, now the least you could do is put it back on.

Nope, BirminghamCulture/Citrus-Fruit, I won't stop playing with you just because you tell me to shut up.

And I won't get this thread back on its rails neither, as all those threads about "Alpha world cities" don't lead anywhere.

[Citrus-Fruit]

Nope, BirminghamCulture/Citrus-Fruit, I won't stop playing with you just because you tell me to shut up.

And I won't get this thread back on its rails neither, as all those threads about "Alpha world cities" don't lead anywhere.


Oh deary me, Someone get him some kleenex ...

[SHiRO]

It's pretty obvious London, NYC and Tokyo rank above Paris.
Paris is pretty solid in the nr 4 spot though...

[bnmaddict]

Oh deary me, Someone get him some kleenex ...

Pathetic sense of humor... Well, that's coherent with the rest of your personality.

[Citrus-Fruit]

Pathetic sense of humor... Well, that's coherent with the rest of your personality.

Least I have a personality, noticing from your responses I suppose you're a bit of a loner, who still lives with his mum.

[bnmaddict]

Least I have a personality, noticing from your responses I suppose you're a bit of a loner, who still lives with his mum.

Nope, as I said in my profil (another difference between us, I'm not ashamed of what I am and do), I'm a 26 years old engineer living in Paris (11th arrondissement), making fun of you with his girlfriend on his side. I'm trying to show her the worst of England (a.k.a you) and she's pretty impressed.

Now, I wish you a good night. I'm tired of this little game.

[Citrus-Fruit]

Nope, as I said in my profil (another difference between us, I'm not ashamed of what I am and do), I'm a 26 years old engineer living in Paris (11th arrondissement), making fun of you with his girlfriend on his side. I'm trying to show her the worst of England (a.k.a you) and she's pretty impressed.

Now, I wish you a good night. I'm tired of this little game.

Tell her to shave her armpits before she go's to bed ...

[coth]

Wikipedia based on GaWC 1999 bulletin.


2004 bulletin
http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/rb/rb146.html

GLOBAL CITIES

Well rounded global cities

1. Very large contribution: London and New York. Smaller contribution and with cultural bias: Los Angeles, Paris and San Francisco
2. Incipient global cities: Amsterdam, Boston, Chicago, Madrid, Milan, Moscow, Toronto

Global niche cities - specialised global contributions

1. Economic: Hong Kong, Singapore, and Tokyo
2. Political and social: Brussels, Geneva, and Washington

WORLD CITIES

Subnet articulator cities

1. Cultural: Berlin, Copenhagen, Melbourne, Munich, Oslo, Rome, Stockholm. Political: Bangkok, Beijing, Vienna
2. Social: Manila, Nairobi, Ottawa

Worldwide leading cities

1. Primarily economic global contributions: Frankfurt, Miami, Munich, Osaka, Singapore, Sydney, Zurich
2. Primarily non-economic global contributions: Abidjan, Addis Ababa, Atlanta, Basle, Barcelona, Cairo, Denver, Harare, Lyon, Manila, Mexico City, Mumbai, New Delhi, Shanghai

[wickedestcity]

i real dont want to get into this tiresome debate again but i just want to point out that its pretty funny how in a recent thread there was much debate as to the statuse of chicago but in this list it clearly puts chicago way up there with the rest of the alfa cities

[leftcoaster]

I am sorry... as as you must know LA is in the alpha world... but not a city representative of such...

Yes, I've been to LA several times... and I know what I am talking about...
You may know what you're talking about (and quite frankly I doubt it), but I sure don't. Nevermind the strange syntax and contradictory logic of your post (how can a thing be "in" a grouping but not "representative of such"), I'll address the "but not a city representative of such" portion. If you looked at the link, the University's criteria were spelled out pretty clearly. I'm unclear what percieved deficency Los Angeles has that makes it unfit to "represent" or be "non-representative" or whatever you meant to communicate here. Pretty much everything I've personally ever seen on the topic has had NYC, Chicago, and LA as the American cities in the "global" "world" and/or "mega" bunch--with LA and Chicago a tier below NYC, London, Tokyo et al. I'd love to hear your thoughts/rationale more specifically, if any such specificity of thought indeed exists. And really, if you don't like Los Angeles for some reason, by all means don't come back. See if you're missed.

Oh, and to the person that dissed Wiki, that may or may not be true, I just liked this one for topic and links. Feel free to offer evidence of, and corrections to, incorrect facts. Peace out.

[Deanb]

Each time, I'm amazed to see those Brits trying to take Paris off the Alpha world cities' list, and adding a dumb "End of story" ... :)

Everybody knows that Paris and London are on the same level (except some brits who seem to live in another world...)

what makes Paris more special than Rome or Madrid?

London is much bigger and stronger than Paris..

[brickellresidence]

what about mexico city the most powerful city in latin america

[Deanb]

well I definitely think they should make a new 2008-2009 list of the most powerful and contributing cities in the world, so we wouldn't have to argue over this matter anymore.

[Madman]

They'd be pretty much the same; as previously stated Tokyo, London, NY and Paris are way ahead of the rest.

[centralcali19]

the list seems fair, but kind of confused why Singapore, Milan,and Frankfurt are on the list. im guessing their nice cities but i would never have thought they were "Alpha" Cities...

[cachen]

frankfurt: financial heart of the europe's largest economy.
milan: industrial and fininanical capital of a g7 country with high cultural output
singapore: international commerce

[Pavlov's Dog]

I always wonder how Washington/Baltimore get ranked so low on these alpha world cities lists? It is certainly a more important and powerful metro than Singapore or Milano. Probably Chicago too.

[Mr.Burn]

I see no reason why Milan is there and not Mexico city, as it fits the bills in all aspects and then some.

[Shukie]

Where is Póvoa de Varzim?

[Anderson Geimz]

Bumping 3 year old threads should be a bannable offense...

[mhays]

I always wonder how Washington/Baltimore get ranked so low on these alpha world cities lists? It is certainly a more important and powerful metro than Singapore or Milano. Probably Chicago too.

Because none of that is counted. GAWC only counts the presence of certain multinational companies in a narrow range of industries (accountancy, advertising, a couple others).

It's the most misunderstood, overused source on SSC.

[kix111]

why dont we just make it 1 city, so nobody will argue anymor? NY?

[xXFallenXx]

why dont we just make it 1 city, so nobody will argue anymor? NY?
The nationalist in me says sure! :D
But i think maybe Tokyo is more deserving?
Please correct me on this if you guys think I'm wrong. I'm sure you will. :tongue3:

[_00_deathscar]

London.

See, argument has started already...

[Tom_Green]

frankfurt: financial heart of the europe's largest economy.
milan: industrial and fininanical capital of a g7 country with high cultural output
singapore: international commerce

In Frankfurt is the headquarter of the worlds most important currency. Look at the oil price. They trade it in $ but when the € gets stronger the oil price rise, the € gows down the oil price goes down. Oil should be traded in €.
Milan: Don`t know much about the city. Maybe the city was kicked out of the top 10 by Shanghai.
Singapore: trade is important, too.

[Intoxication]

Average score of the Financial Centre:

http://neweconomist.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/20060312_averagescoresofthefinancialcent.jpeg

[shadyunltd]

NYC and London both are the World's Financial Centres. No contest.

That is why London is a notch above Paris, apart from the fact that London is a lot more ethnically diverse.

[briker]

I would imagine that New York, Tokyo, London and Paris are the only Alpha cities.

[PD]

In my books London and NYC are the only 2 contestants.
Tokyo would definately come in an uncontested 3rd.

with Paris and Hong Kong salivating and snapping at the heels.
(Paris definately is ahead of Hong Kong though. I understand Parisian complaints that it should be up there too on paper but it is just as much about reputation as well.)

[city_thing]

TIME did an article last year about this, called 'NyLonKong' (New York, London, Hong Kong). They're easily the three most powerful cities on the face of the planet, and once you start to delve into why, it becomes quite obvious.

London overtook NYC due to its transport infrastructure, economic reforms, air hub status, proximity between Europe and North America, the fact that they speak English etc. etc. - NYC will always be on the verge of stealing the crown back though.

Paris seems to slip behind more and more, in the same TIME magazine issue they had an article about the flood of French people leaving for the UK in search of work. They also commented on how Paris is made up of hundreds of different little Governments, whereas London is just one big one (the Greater London Authority). One main council cuts through red tape, hundreds of councils create red tape. Nikolas Sarkozy even mentioned this when he was in London, campaigning for his current job in South Kensington (where a lot of French people live in London).

Anyway, this thread is just going to descend into a shit fight of people claiming that their city is by far the most important in the world, or in their region, or in their country etc. etc. - then people will start trying to discredit the facts because they're not happy about their city not being mentioned. Then people will have huge arguments writing page long reasons as to why their city is better, and then a mod will come along and close it, only for another one to open a week later.

[city_thing]

Here's the article I mentioned, from Time.

A Tale Of Three Cities
Thursday, Jan. 17, 2008 By MICHAEL ELLIOTT

http://img.timeinc.net/time/asia/magazine/2008/0128/davos_opener_nv0128.jpg

They tend to be an optimistic lot, the bankers and business leaders, politicians and pundits, who every year make their way to the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Those who have power and influence often have much to be optimistic about, to be programmed to lift up their eyes to the hills — of which Davos has plenty — and see more prosperity coming their way.

This year's meeting, which starts on Jan. 23, might be a little different. Thoughts may be in the valley rather than the hills. A year ago, subprime had not entered the lexicon of the nightly news, and most Americans probably thought that "credit crunch" was a breakfast cereal. We all know better now. In the wake of the report that December's U.S. unemployment rate had jumped to 5%, the highest level in two years, the Bush Administration and Congress, Republicans and Democrats, started falling over themselves trying to find a politically acceptable stimulus package. With a recession in the American economy looking to be imminent, the tireless locomotive of the global economy seems finally to have run out of puff.

How serious are the consequences likely to be? Much more could go wrong: a collapse of the dollar, or of U.S. consumer confidence as house prices continue their fall. But on balance, the denizens of Davos would be well advised to keep up their sunny spirits. Taking the long view, the global economy is at a remarkable moment. Whatever the chance of a recession this year, the U.S. has experienced what the economist and former Under Secretary of the Treasury for International Affairs John B. Taylor of Stanford University calls a "long boom" since the Fed started to squeeze inflation out of the system in 1979. For nearly 30 years, Taylor points out, the few downturns the U.S. has suffered have, in historical terms, been both short and shallow. Even more extraordinary is the tale outside the U.S. According to the World Bank's recent Global Economic Prospects report, global growth in 2007 was 3.6%, down a little from 3.9% in 2006. But among developing economies, growth was a remarkable 7.4%, the fifth successive year of an expansion of more than 5%. This isn't just the predictable tale of the rise of China and India; on the back of strong commodity prices (and relative peace), African economies, too, are performing better than they have for a generation.

How did the world come to this happy position? You can list the usual reasons: two decades of decent macroeconomic policymaking, the triumph of markets and the collapse of command economies, the dissemination of transforming technologies and tools such as the Internet, and open trading systems. All of these are the attributes that combine to form that much discussed phenomenon: globalization. But in this special report, we look at one overlooked aspect of a generation's worth of global growth: the extent to which New York City, London, and Hong Kong, three cities linked by a shared economic culture, have come to be both examples and explanations of globalization. Connected by long-haul jets and fiber-optic cable, and spaced neatly around the globe, the three cities have (by accident — nobody planned this) created a financial network that has been able to lubricate the global economy, and, critically, ease the entry into the modern world of China, the giant child of our century. Understand this network of cities — Nylonkong, we call it — and you understand our time.

Go back nearly 30 years, and few would have thought that any of the three cities were about to remake the world for the better. In September of 1982, the Hong Kong stock exchange lost a quarter of its value after Margaret Thatcher, flush from her victory in the Falklands War, annoyed the rulers of communist China by foolishly seeming to suggest that Britain might be able to hold on to its colony — which prompted China to insist that it would do no such thing. At the same time, London and New York City were bywords of urban decay. In 1981, London had seen some of the most bitter riots in a century. The city was run by a hard-left political clique whose understanding of capitalism came straight from Marx. (Its leader was "Red" Ken Livingstone; some 25 years on, now mayor, he sings the praises of London's financial-services industry and is pals with New York's plutocratic leader, Michael Bloomberg.) New York almost went bankrupt in 1975; by the early 1980s, its streets were potholed, filthy and dangerous. The city routinely had nearly 2,000 homicides a year. Last year, the number was just 494, the lowest since consistent record-keeping began in 1963.

Challenge and Change
Yet even in the darkest times, the Nylonkong cities had the sort of hidden strengths that would be their salvation. All had a certain adaptability hardwired into their people. All were once centers of manufacturing, but all have been able to shift their economic focus to the service sector as factories moved from New York's lower east side, or London's Park Royal estate, or the thousands of tiny enterprises in Kowloon, to the American sunbelt or up the Pearl River delta from Hong Kong to Guangdong province. All are — or have been — great ports. Today, only Hong Kong of the three wears its seagoing character on its face, with tugs and barges chugging up and down the harbor a stone's throw from the skyscrapers of the banks and trading houses. London and New York, by contrast, politely hide their tattooed seafarers' muscle out of sight, downriver or on the Jersey shore. But the sense of being a blue-water place is vital to the cities' success. It has made them open to trade, with all the transformative capacity that trade has to shake up established orders and make the exotic familiar.

Their history as ports has made Nylonkong open to the world in other ways, too. New York, of course, has long been thought of as a city of immigrants — of the Irish and the Italians, the Dominicans in Washington Heights, and the scores of other ethnicities that make up Gotham's mosaic. But increasingly, so is London. In 2006, according to the London Labour Force Survey, 31% of the city's residents had been born outside Britain; that compared with 34% of New Yorkers who hailed from outside the U.S. that year. Hong Kong, which barely existed 150 years ago, has always been a haven for migrants fleeing trouble in China. Even in these prosperous times for the mainland, it still has pull. (Visitors from the West may find Hong Kong polluted; locals know it has cleaner air than almost all Chinese cities.) And increasingly, it is a magnet also for Chinese whose families have lived for generations in Canada, the U.S. and the U.K., as well as for other Asians. Between 1996 and 2006, for example, the number of South Asians in Hong Kong leapt by 43%.

The network of international trading and personal contacts that shape New York, London and Hong Kong facilitate their key industry. If the 19th century was the age of empire and the 20th one of war, so the 21st century, to date, is an age of finance. It is the banks and investment houses, the mutual funds and money managers, taking in their clients' cash and spreading it around the world, who have made today's global economy what it is. In Victorian times, London alone could fulfill this function. (The city funded enterprises all over the world, including much of the industrial development of the U.S. after the Civil War.) But the job has become too big for one place to handle. Now Nylonkong, that interconnected tripartite city, greases the wheels of trade and development. This is where the great banks — Citigroup and HSBC, Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan — have their headquarters and their key regional offices; this is where ambitious companies go to seek financing or go public. Hong Kong — whose stock market's capitalization jumped almost fourfold in the 10 years from 1996 — has especially been able to benefit from the business of the hundreds of Chinese companies that want to raise money in global markets. Its bankers and brokers are continuing an old story. As they circle the globe — there are no less than 187 direct flights that leave London for New York every week and 28 weekly flights from Hong Kong to New York — staying in their favorite hotels and dining at their favorite private clubs, Nylonkong's financial-services executives are heirs to the Tuscan moneylenders who first stretched the sinews of capitalism 700 years ago.

Great cities, of course, are about more than money and finance. They are messy agglomerations of talent and culture. That is how they attract men and women in the financial sector who could choose to live anywhere. (Granted, nobody yet would argue that Hong Kong was London or New York's cultural equal, but it's a younger place.) That's a reason why Nylonkong needs to be careful not to kill the goose that laid its golden egg. These places are not cheap. According to the consultancy ECA International, Hong Kong's high-end apartments last year had the most expensive rents in the world, with New York third and London sixth.

The sheer expense of living in Nylonkong is but one of the challenges facing it — as the next three stories demonstrate. In the case of New York, high real estate prices may squeeze out of town the very people that make a city fun and livable. Globalization may have brought many benefits to those who live in London, New York and Hong Kong, but it has at the same time made the familiar strange, and turned the known world upside down. As they see London property prices bid to the skies by an influx of foreigners, native Cockneys may one day wonder what the new world has to offer them. Hong Kong, for its part, has gotten rich on the back of China. But it is a city of just 6.9 million people. China's largest metropolis, Shanghai, holds 18 million, and the mainland has scores of other rising cities, all ambitious for their moment on the world stage. Hong Kong must continually raise its game to maintain its relevance to the burgeoning Chinese economy.

Yet these are places that know how to meet a challenge. They've done it before. From being dismissed as long past their prime a quarter of a century ago, New York, London and Hong Kong have gone on to extraordinary heights. Tying themselves together, they have also knitted the world into a seamless fabric, financing and transporting the container vessels and the streams of data that have made today's global economy a phenomenon that has increased the life chances of countless millions. Welcome to Nylonkong, and the world it made.

[caminerillo]

Interesting link to a Wikipedia page that lists, with tons of info, the world's 10 "Alpha World Cities" from the Globalization and World Cities Study Group & Network at England's Loughborough University. Their facts and criteria are very interesting and hard to argue with.

The ten cities are:
London
New York
Paris
Tokyo
Chicago
Frankfurt
Hong Kong
Los Angeles
Milan
Singapore

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_city

Full of fun facts, pix and demographic arcania. :)

Where are Madrid, Berlin, Rome, Frankfurt am Main, Zurich, Brussels, Barcelona, Amsterdam...?

Stupid list.

[caminerillo]

frankfurt: financial heart of the europe's largest economy.
milan: industrial and fininanical capital of a g7 country with high cultural output
singapore: international commerce

Frankfurt is not only the heart of the german economy, is also the heart of the European Union economy.

[Homer J. Simpson]

Where are Madrid, Berlin, Rome, Frankfurt am Main, Zurich, Brussels, Barcelona, Amsterdam...?

Stupid list.

The entire listing is as follows, you will see all of those cities in the GaWC, just not all of them are alpha cities.

Alpha world cities / full service world cities[6]

* 12 points: London, New York City, Paris, Tokyo
* 10 points: Chicago, Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Los Angeles, Milan, Singapore

Beta world cities / major world cities

* 9 points: San Francisco, Sydney, Toronto, Zürich
* 8 points: Brussels, Madrid, Mexico City, São Paulo
* 7 points: Moscow, Seoul

Gamma world cities / minor world cities

* 6 points: Amsterdam, Boston, Caracas, Dallas, Düsseldorf, Geneva, Houston, Jakarta, Johannesburg, Melbourne, Osaka, Prague, Santiago, Taipei, Washington, D.C.
* 5 points: Bangkok, Beijing, Montreal, Rome, Stockholm, Warsaw
* 4 points: Atlanta, Barcelona, Berlin, Budapest, Buenos Aires, Copenhagen, Hamburg, Istanbul, Kuala Lumpur, Manila, Miami, Minneapolis, Munich, Shanghai

[mhays]

It's not a stupid list. It's just misused by nearly everyone.

It's not a list of which cities are important and/or influential, just of which cities have offices of certain companies. Of course most people don't read the methodology, so they needlessly wonder why their city places where it does.

[Homer J. Simpson]

Also this is by no means a quality of life survey.

Definitely not something to feel slighted about either.

[wjfox]

Please don't resurrect these old threads. You should know by now, City vs City threads are no longer allowed.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=451910

Deanb: an infraction for you.