RBC Centre | Topped Out | 42 st | 182.5 m | Downtown

[cassius]

Cadillac Fairview announced a 48 storey office tower to go up right beside (east) of the Ritz-Carlton.

Here's a press release thanks to FutureMayor on UT.

Ritz-Carlton, Cadillac Fairview and Graywood Developments create joint venture for Toronto luxury hotel and condominium Joint venture a historic first for The Ritz-Carlton Hotel Company, L.L.C.

Cadillac Fairview to build 48-storey office tower beside Toronto's first five-star hotel

TORONTO, Sept. 26 /CNW/ - The Ritz-Carlton Hotel Company of Chevy Chase, Md., Graywood Developments Ltd. and The Cadillac Fairview Corp. Ltd., of Toronto, announced today the three companies will jointly own The Ritz-Carlton
Hotel and Residences Toronto.

The 53-storey Ritz-Carlton Hotel and Residences, Toronto will be the first Ritz-Carlton Hotel and Residences in Canada and the first five-star hotel in Toronto. The $325-million tower will be built on the south side of Wellington Street, between Simcoe and John Streets.

Previously, the development role for Ritz-Carlton was limited to the hotel portion of the combined luxury hotel and condominium building. Under the new ownership structure announced today, Ritz-Carlton becomes a joint-venture
partner in the entire building, including the condominium residences.

"This is a first for Ritz-Carlton in the world and is indicative of our confidence in this project and the strength of this location," said Simon Cooper, chief operating officer and president of The Ritz-Carlton Hotel Company. "The demand for luxury hotels is tremendous right now, and is especially strong in cosmopolitan areas, financial centres and gateway cities
like Toronto."

The slim and elegant tower with its striking design - above the 26th floor, the building grows wider as it rises - will have 267 five-star hotel rooms on storeys six to 20. Storeys 22 to 52 will contain 135 luxury condominium residences and a five-storey podium will contain conference and meeting facilities, fine-dining restaurants and a 2,000-square-metre,
full-service spa.

Cadillac Fairview president and chief executive officer Peter Sharpe revealed today that the company will develop a 48-storey, Class AAA office tower with 1.2 million sq. ft. of commercial space on land immediately to the east of The Ritz-Carlton Hotel and Residences Toronto.

At an estimated construction value of $400 million, the office tower will complement the existing Simcoe Place at the northwest corner of Simcoe and Front Streets.

"At Cadillac Fairview, part of our core business is to develop best-in-class retail, office and mixed-use developments in unique, dynamic urban centres," said Sharpe. "This site is adjacent to Toronto's financial and entertainment districts. And, the office tower will stand right beside The Ritz-Carlton, providing a built-in clientele for the hotel."

The office development will create more than 1,700 construction jobs and bring approximately 500 full and part-time positions to downtown Toronto. Cadillac Fairview anticipates the office tower will be ready for occupancy in summer 2009.

Construction of The Ritz-Carlton Hotel and Residences Toronto will create approximately 1,500 construction jobs and more than 500 permanent, full-time jobs. Construction will start in 2006 and completion is scheduled in 2009.

Destined to be a Toronto landmark with its striking, modern architecture, the 700,000 sq. ft. Ritz-Carlton Hotel and Residences Toronto was jointly designed by Kohn Pedersen Fox (KPF) Associates Architects and Planners, based
in New York and Toronto-based Page & Steele Architects.

The condominium sales office for The Ritz-Carlton Hotel and Residences Toronto opens on the site in early October. Most suites will range in price from $1 million to more than $3 million and in size from 2,000 to more than 3,000 sq. ft.

[Toronto36]

Wow, you guys are good. I monitor the newswire like a hawk and as soon as I read this I posted it but I am not fast enough. Looking forward to seeing what will be put there. 1.2 million sounds rather large. Cannot wait for this to happen.

[punkstarbassist101]

Cadillac Fairview to build 48-storey office tower beside Toronto's first five-star hotel

I thought Trump was Toronto's first five-star hotel or does it go by which one starts construction or finishes first.

[You are to blame]

too bad not many people will see it behind the cluster

[cassius]

Behind the cluster? It's a couple blocks west of the CBD.

[SpatulaCity]

Excellent news!! So good to hear about a new commercial tower downtown.

At 48 storeys, we're looking at roughly 650 to possibly 700 ft. That's good height... not huge, but very decent.

Anybody have time (or the skill) to throw in an outline of a tower that size in a pic of downtown? It'd be great to see how the skyline would look.

[g2fl]

To get an idea the Bay Wellington Tower is also 49 stories and its about 679 feet. So this should shape up to be a nice sized tower .... although at this point I could care less about the height but rather the looks. Here's hoping for a sleek new building for the toronto skyline.

[Mechie]

at 48 stories and 1.2 million sq ft it is going to be very WIDE. FCP is 2 million, already quite wide, and 70 stories tall.

[You are to blame]

Behind the cluster? It's a couple blocks west of the CBD.

thats still too close i think, the skyline needs to spread out more, we need a good stand alone builiding further west or east from the CBD

[SpatulaCity]

at 48 stories and 1.2 million sq ft it is going to be very WIDE. FCP is 2 million, already quite wide, and 70 stories tall.

that's true. At 1.2 mil sq ft, if it were to have the same floor plates as FCP, it would be 42 storeys. So at 48, it'll be thinner but not by a huge amount. I think it'll resemble simcoe place to some degree but obviously taller.

[Lucky 24]

Nothing beats coming home from work and finding out that Toronto is getting another large project....i'm so loving this building/proposal boom. I hope the renderings get released soon.

[samsonyuen]

I wonder when we'll see renderings of this.

[Travis007]

Great news, looks like we'll actually see a tall office tower be built this decade. Hopefully the design matches with the Ritz. :)

I think the tower could be possibly over 700 ft. That's my estimate because it's a office tower so the floor heights will be taller, and since the site is relatively small and it will incorporate 1.2 million square feet of office space.

[Travis007]

From the Star

Cadillac Fairview plans 48-storey office tower


TARA PERKINS
CANADIAN PRESS

Cadillac Fairview Corp. revealed plans Monday to build a $400-million, 48-storey office tower in downtown Toronto — with the Ritz as its high-end neighbour.

Toronto's business community has long been awaiting news of a new office project in the city, where vacancy rates in the downtown core's top office buildings fell to a three-year low of 5.6 per cent during the third quarter of this year, from 6.1 per cent in the second quarter.

The Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan Board owns Cadillac Fairview, which manages an $11-billion portfolio of more than 80 properties, including the Toronto Eaton Centre, Toronto-Dominion Centre, Calgary's Chinook Centre and Vancouver's Pacific Centre.

Cadillac's new office tower, near CBC's headquarters, will create more than 1,700 construction jobs and bring about 500 full- and part-time jobs to Toronto, the company said. It expects the offices to be ready by the summer of 2009.

"This site is adjacent to Toronto's financial and entertainment districts," said Cadillac Fairview CEO Peter Sharpe. "And the office tower will stand right beside The Ritz-Carlton, providing a built-in clientele for the hotel."

Cadillac, Graywood Developments Ltd. and the Chevy Chase, Md.-based Ritz-Carlton Hotel Co. announced Monday they will jointly invest in the previously announced $325-million, 53-storey Ritz-Carlton Hotel and Residences project.

Originally, Ritz-Carlton only intended to place its money behind the hotel component of the project.

President Simon Cooper said in an interview that Ritz will contribute 20 per cent of the investment, with Cadillac and Graywood each taking 40 per cent stakes.

"It's a change for Ritz-Carlton, because typically we're not investors in the residential side," Cooper said. "This is the first time we have ever chosen to be an investor in a downtown (residential) location," he said, although the Ritz — which operates 59 hotels around the world — has invested in residential projects in resort locations.

Construction of the hotel project is expected to start at the end of next year, and take about 30 months. Suites in the residential component will range in price from $1 million to more than $3 million, for 2,000 square feet to more than 3,000 square feet.

More than two years after the SARS outbreak and four years after the attack on New York's World Trade Center, Cooper said the hotel industry is "looking relatively good in Canada. I think that there are still some issues," he said, citing the high Canadian dollar, which has a negative impact on leisure travel.

The Ritz intends to split its focus evenly between business and leisure travellers.

New model of the Ritz

http://www.thestar.com/images/thestar/img/050926_ritz_cooper_200.jpg

[cassius]

thats still too close i think, the skyline needs to spread out more, we need a good stand alone builiding further west or east from the CBD
Signature Tower should fill this roll.

[Bertez]

^^That model looks sweet

[CrazyCanuck]

Tthey just keep on coming, like at least once a week. It's nice to see a good sized office tower finally, it looks like the building will be going up at roughly the same time as Ritz-Carlton, hopefully all of these cranes do not crash into each other, lol.

[Travis007]

thats still too close i think, the skyline needs to spread out more, we need a good stand alone builiding further west or east from the CBD

Even though Shangri-La, This, Ritz, Festival Tower, and a possible 500 ft.+ office tower (151 Front Street) might not stick out of the skyline too much, I think they will do a fine job filling the gap between the CN Tower and the MINT cluster.

And Cityplace will be a great addition West of the CN as well. :)

[Filip]

OWOOWOWOWOW!:D:D:D

[DrJoe]

Last thing you should be worried about is the skyline. A large office building is great news no matter where it is.

[Travis007]

Anyone know if KPF is also the architectural firm who designed this tower as well?

[snoopy]

Anyone know if KPF is also the architectural firm who designed this tower as well?

HOPEFULLY... kpf is one of the best.

Now if only we could get a SOM office skyscraper in Toronto... :drool:

[Are Be]

Say, like, the CIBC tower? Was SOM involved in Terminal 3 at Pearson?

[Mr Man]

Excellent news... 1.2 million sqft is a lot of office space too.

I'm skeptical though that it will be built. I would have figured Bay-Adelaide would have been the first to go if the market needed another million square feet of office space. Then again maybe Brookfield has gone really conservative and decided to sit on the site and live off the risk-free revenues.

Anyway

Good news!

[Travis007]

HOPEFULLY... kpf is one of the best.

Now if only we could get a SOM office skyscraper in Toronto... :drool:

Actually SOM designed the Canada Trust Tower along with Calatrava:

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/547/3309td_tower.jpg

And the BCE Atrium, but I think this was mostly Calatrava

http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~shmat/photo/toronto/slides/04bceplace.jpg

[M II A II R II K]

The CGI rendering on the news did look similar to that Hummingbird rendering, it was for sure the same colour, but we will have to see.

[rt_0891]

:dance:

[snoopy]

sorry for my confusion about lack of SOM here in Toronto.. i'm truly sorry. thank you for correcting me

[The Mad Hatter!!]

that going to be one big wide or fat tower

it'll be about the size of 7 times square which is exactly 48 stories,1.2million sqft,and is 712ft,its floor plate is 22,000sqft 2040m , and width is 113ft or 34m,
http://e.1asphost.com/guide498/7times_sq_01b.jpg
http://www.wirednewyork.com/skyscrapers/10xsq/images/10xsq_5xsq_11may02.jpg

[Bertez]

Actually SOM designed the Canada Trust Tower along with Calatrava:

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/547/3309td_tower.jpg

And the BCE Atrium, but I think this was mostly Calatrava

http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~shmat/photo/toronto/slides/04bceplace.jpg

Which is more reason to have more SOM buildings:D:D

[valantino]

Popular thread eventhough the information is far from new

KPF is the architect (called Wellington Square)

[Istrian]

Excellent news!! So good to hear about a new commercial tower downtown.

At 48 storeys, we're looking at roughly 650 to possibly 700 ft. That's good height... not huge, but very decent.

Anybody have time (or the skill) to throw in an outline of a tower that size in a pic of downtown? It'd be great to see how the skyline would look.

_________________________________________________________________


This rendering isn't accurate, of course, but at least gives you a notion how it may look like:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/istrian/CopyofSupertallTrono2.jpg

[Observer Walt]

^ Agreed! This has been a long time coming! We have had condos announced on virtually a weekly basis but it has been literally years since a major new office building was announced in downtown Toronto.

[mikep]

hmm...its gonna be fat, excellent news though, i assume it will taller than Ritz?

[in'sauga]

Very Exciting News for Toronto.....after a lull in buidling construction in the 90's its nice to see a new boom for the city....the skyline will look spectacular!!!!

[partybits]

Great to hear, finally an office building! Is it just me or is anyone else here not able to keep track of all the new projects coming on board. Seems to be so much at once.

I just hope they actually build all these towers. Cross my fingers!

[Ed007Toronto]

its nice to see a new boom for the city....the skyline will look spectacular!!!!

New? It's been a good five years if not closer to ten by now.

[rt_0891]

New? It's been a good five years if not closer to ten by now.

But the golden era has yet to begin. :)

All the condos were just a prelude for what's to come.

[SpatulaCity]

Wow, Istrian... excellent!!

[valantino]

She's a beaut

http://www.thestar.com/images/thestar/img/050927_office_towers_200.jpg

Tower boosts city core
Cadillac Fairview announces new 48-storey office tower

Other building projects expected as Toronto core booms


TONY WONG
BUSINESS REPORTER

Toronto will get its first major office tower in more than a decade as the city's downtown core experiences an economic rebirth from an unprecedented building boom.

The announcement by developer Cadillac Fairview yesterday heralds a potential mini-renaissance in downtown office development. It's expected to prompt other developers to announce their own mega-projects.

The new tower will eventually be up to 48 storeys tall and 1.2 million square feet, about the same size as major downtown bank towers, Cadillac Fairview President and CEO Peter Sharpe said yesterday.

"We have confidence in Toronto and we think it's a good healthy market and it's going to get better," Sharpe said in an interview.

The new tower will be built at the same time as a planned new Ritz-Carlton hotel and condominium complex and will rise on the corner of Simcoe and Wellington streets in the city's entertainment district.

The announcement is a major coup for Cadillac, since there has been much anticipation over who would be the first to announce the building of a new tower in downtown Toronto.

Other potential sites being talked about include the Bay-Adelaide Centre being developed by Brookfield Properties and One Union Plaza, a property owned by Menkes at 25 York St. Both sites have been actively looking for big anchor tenants.

But Cadillac is banking that only one site will have the Ritz-Carlton beside it, and that corporations will want to locate because of the cachet, despite the fact it is outside the traditional Bay Street financial district.

"Having the Ritz beside us will be a huge plus — we think the two buildings will redefine the area, and I think that's a powerful message," said John Sullivan, senior vice-president of office development for Cadillac.

And the new tower will be more than a little symbolic: Despite the fact that Toronto has seen a massive building boom in condominium development, large-scale commercial building development has been almost non-existent.

Yesterday, the Greater Toronto Home Builders reported that they expected more condos to be sold this year than any other.

Most of those condos are in downtown Toronto, which has attracted residents from overseas and other parts of Canada, and suburbanites who now see the area as a good place to live.

But while residential development is on fire, commercial developers still had a hangover from the bursting of the technology bubble in 2000, which created a glut of office space that devastated landlords.

"Developers have been sitting on the fence for 10 years deciding whether to put something up, and finally somebody got off the fence," said Paul Morse, senior vice-president of office leasing for Royal LePage Commercial Inc.

"We haven't heard the likes of this announcement for a long time and it shows how much confidence developers now have in the market."

Sullivan said he expected to start building by 2006, with a completion date of mid-2009.

The first phase of the building will be between 600,000 and 800,000 square feet and more than 30 storeys. More floors will be added depending on demand, said Sullivan. Building both towers at the same time will also offer economies of scale, and allow building to proceed more quickly.

The land was assembled over the years by Cadillac Fairview, the real estate subsidiary of the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan Board.

Cadillac says they are still looking for a lead tenant who will commit to leasing 200,000 to 300,000 square feet, but are "confident" they will get the project off the ground.

Sullivan says he is already working with potential tenants, including tenants from the company's existing database who are looking for large blocks of space. Cadillac is the largest landlord in downtown Toronto.

But they may soon have some competition, such as the Bay-Adelaide project, the last big skyscraper announced for Toronto before the recession hit. Construction was halted in 1991 after $500 million was invested. No skyscraper has gone up since.

"We are actively working on it, and we hope to announce something soon. We have a great location and we are seeing a lot of tenant demand," said Melissa Coley, vice-president of investor relations for developer Brookfield in New York.

Cadillac's Sharpe said he would not be worried if Brookfield also announced plans to build since he thinks the market could absorb the extra space.

Brookfield may build something in the range of 600,000 to 800,000 square feet, although the site can hold a much larger tower.

However, Morse said being first to market might give Cadillac an edge in the competitive marketplace, since they would be able to sign on tenants more quickly.

The last substantial tower built in downtown Toronto was BCE Place, completed 14 years ago. Cadillac's Simcoe Place on Front St. W., was finished 10 years ago.

The most recent building in the financial core is still the 450,000-square-foot O&Y Properties Maritime Life Tower at 2 Queen East. completed in 2003.

The most recent building just outside the key financial core, but still in the downtown area, is the SAS Building at 280 King St. E., which should be ready for occupancy next month.

But it has been a while since Toronto has seen a large-scale office tower like that proposed by Cadillac Fairview. With a healthy Canadian dollar, low inflation, a major building boom and strong employment numbers in the Toronto area over the last few years, companies have finally decided to go into expansion mode.

"Things are looking up if you're a landlord," said Morse.

Royal LePage reported this month that the downtown Toronto office vacancy rate had dropped to 9 per cent in the third quarter of 2005, from a high of almost 12 per cent in 2003.

[SpatulaCity]

ok, so no lead tenant and...

The first phase of the building will be between 600,000 and 800,000 square feet and more than 30 storeys. More floors will be added depending on demand

hmm, that's not good!

[Lucky 24]

Great, bay-adelaide tidbits are always intriguing to hear. Beautiful rendering.

[Travis007]

That's quite a nice design, matches the Ritz.

[416]

Great new indeed.

I don't understand this though:

"The first phase of the building will be between 600,000 and 800,000 square feet and more than 30 storeys. More floors will be added depending on demand, said Sullivan."

So does that mean the tower will be virtically phased with the remaining 18 storeys built at a later date?

The rendering looks out of scale. Wouldn't the Ritz be somewhat taller/larger than what's pictured here?

http://www.thestar.com/images/thestar/img/050927_office_towers_200.jpg

In any event, nice to see TO finally getting a decent skyscraper.

[Mechie]

^ the ritz is simply farther back and so appears small

[Are Be]

She's a beaut

http://www.thestar.com/images/thestar/img/050927_office_towers_200.jpg

Tower boosts city core
Cadillac Fairview announces new 48-storey office tower

Other building projects expected as Toronto core booms


TONY WONG
BUSINESS REPORTER

Toronto will get its first major office tower in more than a decade as the city's downtown core experiences an economic rebirth from an unprecedented building boom.

The announcement by developer Cadillac Fairview yesterday heralds a potential mini-renaissance in downtown office development. It's expected to prompt other developers to announce their own mega-projects.

The new tower will eventually be up to 48 storeys tall and 1.2 million square feet, about the same size as major downtown bank towers, Cadillac Fairview President and CEO Peter Sharpe said yesterday.

"We have confidence in Toronto and we think it's a good healthy market and it's going to get better," Sharpe said in an interview.

The new tower will be built at the same time as a planned new Ritz-Carlton hotel and condominium complex and will rise on the corner of Simcoe and Wellington streets in the city's entertainment district.

The announcement is a major coup for Cadillac, since there has been much anticipation over who would be the first to announce the building of a new tower in downtown Toronto.

Other potential sites being talked about include the Bay-Adelaide Centre being developed by Brookfield Properties and One Union Plaza, a property owned by Menkes at 25 York St. Both sites have been actively looking for big anchor tenants.

But Cadillac is banking that only one site will have the Ritz-Carlton beside it, and that corporations will want to locate because of the cachet, despite the fact it is outside the traditional Bay Street financial district.

"Having the Ritz beside us will be a huge plus — we think the two buildings will redefine the area, and I think that's a powerful message," said John Sullivan, senior vice-president of office development for Cadillac.

And the new tower will be more than a little symbolic: Despite the fact that Toronto has seen a massive building boom in condominium development, large-scale commercial building development has been almost non-existent.

Yesterday, the Greater Toronto Home Builders reported that they expected more condos to be sold this year than any other.

Most of those condos are in downtown Toronto, which has attracted residents from overseas and other parts of Canada, and suburbanites who now see the area as a good place to live.

But while residential development is on fire, commercial developers still had a hangover from the bursting of the technology bubble in 2000, which created a glut of office space that devastated landlords.

"Developers have been sitting on the fence for 10 years deciding whether to put something up, and finally somebody got off the fence," said Paul Morse, senior vice-president of office leasing for Royal LePage Commercial Inc.

"We haven't heard the likes of this announcement for a long time and it shows how much confidence developers now have in the market."

Sullivan said he expected to start building by 2006, with a completion date of mid-2009.

The first phase of the building will be between 600,000 and 800,000 square feet and more than 30 storeys. More floors will be added depending on demand, said Sullivan. Building both towers at the same time will also offer economies of scale, and allow building to proceed more quickly.

The land was assembled over the years by Cadillac Fairview, the real estate subsidiary of the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan Board.

Cadillac says they are still looking for a lead tenant who will commit to leasing 200,000 to 300,000 square feet, but are "confident" they will get the project off the ground.

Sullivan says he is already working with potential tenants, including tenants from the company's existing database who are looking for large blocks of space. Cadillac is the largest landlord in downtown Toronto.

But they may soon have some competition, such as the Bay-Adelaide project, the last big skyscraper announced for Toronto before the recession hit. Construction was halted in 1991 after $500 million was invested. No skyscraper has gone up since.

"We are actively working on it, and we hope to announce something soon. We have a great location and we are seeing a lot of tenant demand," said Melissa Coley, vice-president of investor relations for developer Brookfield in New York.

Cadillac's Sharpe said he would not be worried if Brookfield also announced plans to build since he thinks the market could absorb the extra space.

Brookfield may build something in the range of 600,000 to 800,000 square feet, although the site can hold a much larger tower.

However, Morse said being first to market might give Cadillac an edge in the competitive marketplace, since they would be able to sign on tenants more quickly.

The last substantial tower built in downtown Toronto was BCE Place, completed 14 years ago. Cadillac's Simcoe Place on Front St. W., was finished 10 years ago.

The most recent building in the financial core is still the 450,000-square-foot O&Y Properties Maritime Life Tower at 2 Queen East. completed in 2003.

The most recent building just outside the key financial core, but still in the downtown area, is the SAS Building at 280 King St. E., which should be ready for occupancy next month.

But it has been a while since Toronto has seen a large-scale office tower like that proposed by Cadillac Fairview. With a healthy Canadian dollar, low inflation, a major building boom and strong employment numbers in the Toronto area over the last few years, companies have finally decided to go into expansion mode.

"Things are looking up if you're a landlord," said Morse.

Royal LePage reported this month that the downtown Toronto office vacancy rate had dropped to 9 per cent in the third quarter of 2005, from a high of almost 12 per cent in 2003.
1. That article is from the Star:
Legal Notice: Copyright Toronto Star Newspapers Limited. All rights reserved. Distribution, transmission or republication of any material from www.thestar.com is strictly prohibited without the prior written permission of Toronto Star Newspapers Limited. For information please contact us using our webmaster form. www.thestar.com online since 1996.


2- I cannot blame them for starting off with a 30 story budding and adding more floors if required. It is hard to get anchor tenants. (Remember the old "Are Be Centre": crap office building with a medium sized company as an anchor tenet- a champ paying a fraction of the rent with its name on the building, rather than a chump paying rent through the nose with a competitor's name on the building.

Quite frankly, it's an 'eyes closed' decision. I have hard time seeing the benefit of being on the 18th floor in a granite 70 story tower if you can be on the 18th floor in a crap glass -clad 18 story building, and pay less rent. Reduce cost and have more prestige- why would nay medium sized compnay turn that down? And, if you cannot get a few medium sized companies as tenants, you cannot build the 40+ story tall tower.

[CrazyCanuck]

Wow, looks nice, it matches the Ritz, which is what I was kinf of expecting. Has a nice big business look to it that so many other great towers have in the cbd, sleek and not over done.

But yeah, whats with the 30 stories and adding more later comment?

[urban 2.0]

So would Simcoe Place II go south of this tower? (left hand side of the photo?)

[Are Be]

I think this tower is Simcoe Place II (with new name and design)

The Article states: "The last substantial tower built in downtown Toronto was BCE Place, completed 14 years ago. Cadillac's Simcoe Place on Front St. W., was finished 10 years ago." So, I suspect this new office building will be built in the parking lot beside or behind Simcoe Place.

[Ed007Toronto]

This is Simcoe II. It will be located at the southwest corner of Simcoe and Wellington and just north of Simcoe I.

[SD]

It's a 30 storey tower with the potential for up to 48 if market conditions demand it.

[Travis007]

Even if the tower only ends up being about 30s, it could still very easily be a 500 ft. tower considering the floor heights for an office tower. The site behind Simcoe Place is in 2 parts. The Eastern part is currently an underground parking lot which I'm assuming will be the office tower. The Western part which is currently construction the sales centre would probably be the Ritz. Looks like both towers will be relatively skinny.

The only problem I see with the tower is the tiny podium, they should of scaled the tower a back bit:

http://www.thestar.com/images/thestar/img/050927_office_towers_200.jpg

[snoopy]

The only problem I see with the tower is the tiny podium, they should of scaled the tower a back bit

yeah... the podium is sorta small.... travis i see its time to update your signature again to add this baby to the list lol poor guy.

[Filip]

What a gorgeous tower!

[neilio]

wow! this is great news i cant wait to see this thing go up!

[Dr. Phalange]

Greetings everyone, I'm a long-time lurker and first-time poster and a huge fan of this site.

That is a gorgeous building, and that along with Ritz will nicely aid in filling the somewhat of gap between the CN tower and the MINT cluster when viewed from the water.

So, how many propsed/approved towers over 500ft does Toronto currently have (assuming this newly proposed tower will reach 500ft)?

[snoopy]

So, how many propsed/approved towers over 500ft does Toronto currently have (assuming this newly proposed tower will reach 500ft)?

a good place to start would be travis007's signature =P other than that... i think that is all that is approved/proposed... College Park Tower 1 currently underconstruction is also over 500ft.

[Travis007]

Greetings everyone, I'm a long-time lurker and first-time poster and a huge fan of this site.

That is a gorgeous building, and that along with Ritz will nicely aid in filling the somewhat of gap between the CN tower and the MINT cluster when viewed from the water.

So, how many propsed/approved towers over 500ft does Toronto currently have (assuming this newly proposed tower will reach 500ft)?

There's the ones in my sig plus:

Bay-Adelaide Centre - 679 ft. 45 Floors [Stale Office Proposal]
Richmond-Adelaide Centre II- 595 ft. 41 floors [Stale Office Proposal]
151 Front Street West - 549 ft. 36 floors [Stale Office Proposal]

Quantum II [Minto Midtown] - 525 ft. 52 floors Approved/Excavated
One City Hall II, 50s Proposed
The Uptown, 518 ft. 48s Approved
Festival Tower, 514 ft. 42s
Residences @ College Park, 52s 505 ft. U/C

[The Mad Hatter!!]

i hadn't notice that miami passed toronto for most 500ft towers

[Byron]

I like the 'peeling facade' look which matches that of the Ritz, but my concern is the one storey podium. It should be roughly the height of the podium of the Ritz.

[Nihilist]

...

[Nihilist]

i hadn't notice that miami passed toronto for most 500ft towers

Provoke while you can, the irrational exuberance of your market will implode in the not to distant future. :angel: How much has the value of condominiums in Miami increased over the last five or six years?

[Mechie]

^talk about insecurity. geez who cares.

[Jaye101]

lol, I don't think it will implode.

[Are Be]

Sep. 28, 2005. 01:00 AM
Towering development


Construction cranes have been roosting in downtown Toronto in significant number for years. But they have mainly worked to supply a seemingly insatiable local demand for new condominium towers.

Now, for the first time in more than a decade, Toronto could see construction of a major office tower — a $400 million edifice soaring 48 storeys high and associated with a proposed Ritz-Carlton luxury hotel and condo complex.

It is to be built at the corner of Simcoe and Wellington Sts., in the city's entertainment district.

The double-barrelled project, announced this week by Cadillac Fairview Corp., represents a strong vote of confidence in the future of Toronto's downtown. If other developers follow suit with their own megaprojects, it could herald a dynamic new era of office expansion in Canada's largest city.

Toronto's skyline has not had a major new office tower on the scale of what is proposed since BCE Place was completed in 1991.

That's when recession doused the North American real estate market, bringing new development to a dead stop. The concrete stump that was to be the Bay-Adelaide Centre, between Bay and Yonge Sts., remains an emblem of that time. Construction stalled in 1991 due to lack of demand, and hasn't been resumed.

In subsequent years, as business struggled to grasp the vast implications of the Internet, there was speculation that a new era of telecommuting might make sprawling offices, stacked in towers, obsolete.

One analyst predicted that no development offering 1 million square feet or more of office space would ever be built in Toronto again.

Cadillac Fairview's proposed new tower would hold 1.2 million square feet. If all goes well, construction is to start next year, in tandem with the building of a posh hotel and condo complex next door.

Cadillac Fairview is looking for a major corporate tenant willing to lease 200,000 to 300,000 square feet of space. And the presence of the planned new Ritz-Carlton complex is considered a strong selling point.

The luxury residential building, done in a style similar to the office tower, would feature 135 high-end condominiums rising above a 20-storey section operated as a hotel.

The developer is betting that the cachet provided by the Ritz-Carlton will help attract an anchor tenant with deep pockets.

In contrast to the bleak outlook that dominated the past decade, the time seems right for new office construction. The vacancy rate in downtown Toronto office buildings is down to 9 per cent, making it a landlord's market. And the vacancy rate for high-end, top-of-the—line office space is even lower, hovering between 5 per cent and 6 per cent.

Prospects seem bright.

There is even a chance that construction cranes will reappear at the long dormant Bay-Adelaide Centre site. That would signal a true renaissance of office development in Toronto's downtown core.
...

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[Nihilist]

Condo flippers walk a lucrative tightrope amid predictions of downturn

By Alexandra Navarro Clifton
Business Writer
Posted September 16 2005

Dabbling in luxury real estate has netted sweet returns for Joel Pashcow. He has bought and sold two townhouses at CityPlace in downtown West Palm Beach, as well as six condos in the past two years.

His average profits: about 20 percent, says Pashcow, 62, who lives in Florida about seven months of the year.

Such rapid-fire buying and selling of real estate is often referred to as "flipping."

With values still soaring for South Florida homes, the phenomenon has steadily increased in the condo and single-family market over the past five years. Some real estate experts have compared the prevalence of real estate flipping to the heady days of the late 1990s when investors were busily day-trading dot-com stocks.

South Florida has been one of the most active markets in the country for flipping, experts say, because so many condo units are under construction or in the planning stages.

In the second quarter of 2005, 4.5 percent of single-family homes and 4 percent of condominium units in South Florida sold after being owned for six months or less, according to DataQuick Information Systems, a real estate research firm in San Diego.

Turnover in condo units has exploded. In Palm Beach County during the second quarter of this year, 4.9 percent of condos sold had been owned less than six months, compared with 1.1 percent in the second quarter of 2000. In Broward, that figure was 4 percent of condos for the second quarter of this year, compared with 1.2 percent in the same period of 2000.

Although overall condo flips over six-month periods are less than 5 percent for all counties in South Florida, David Dabby and other real estate experts say the number is much higher for new condo units. They estimate that speculators buy about 60 percent of new units in Broward and Palm Beach counties.

Also, much of the new-condo flipping never appears in the public record because it is done through selling contracts during construction, experts like Dabby say. The buyer has not actually "closed" on the finished unit -- or put down the remainder of the purchase price, beyond the deposit.

Flipping contracts may bring in quick bucks, but profits are taxed as ordinary income -- not as long-term capital gains -- if the buyer's contract is not held for at least one year, said Hal Lewis, a real estate lawyer and partner at Pathman Lewis in Miami.

Still, for many investors, the sizable profits made from flipping a property outweigh tax implications.

While the practice has flourished, experts have been warning that the real estate market has peaked. A fear that the bubble is about to burst has made some flippers more wary.

"I've been a little more cautious than before," said Pashcow. "When I look at a building, I might focus more on the unit with the view instead of buying others."

Real estate analyst Christopher Hamlin, a partner in Goodkin Consulting in Miami, said he has seen a significant increase in speculative buying over the past year, especially in the condo market. Most investors expect 20 or 30 percent returns, but Hamlin warns that as interest rates climb and more new condos come on the market, investors may not find buyers in the next few years.

Hamlin said investors should remember Miami's condo bust in the 1980s. "We've seen this movie before and it doesn't end well," he said. "We've exchanged the fantasy of the stock market of the late 1990s with real estate."

Slowing speculators

The role that developers play in enabling flipping is difficult to determine. Most of them open resale offices to help buyers sell their units. They sometimes turn a blind eye to flipping because they rely on pre-construction sales to secure financing. Lenders often require having a certain percentage of units pre-sold before issuing the money needed to build a project.

But some developers are becoming more cautious about speculators. To avoid the flipping of contracts, many force buyers to close on the condo or face fines and other penalties.

One of the country's largest condo developers, The Related Group of Miami, says it actively discourages speculators. Related is building or is proposing several condos in all three South Florida counties, including the debated Hyde Park Market site in downtown Fort Lauderdale and several new condo projects in downtown West Palm Beach.

All buyers are required to sign affidavits saying they have not purchased more than two units in any single project, said Barbara Salk, a company senior vice president. The company tracks how many units buyers have purchased with a computer database for all its projects.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-sbflipping18sep16,0,816754.story?page=1&coll=sfla-news-sfla

The difference between Miami and Toronto: "Miami-area home values increased 20% in 2004" (http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/housing/2005-04-19-florida-boom-usat_x.htm)
whereas in Toronto they increased by 5.2% (yesterdays Star).

Miami

Median Income $15,592 $27,542 $39,353 $41,652
Median Home Price $65,370 $89,550 $143,590 $276,440
Affordability Index 63.77 104.03 99.35 75
1980 1990 2000 2004

http://www.forbes.com/2005/06/02/cx_sc_0603homeslide_8.html

In real terms the median houses' value has increased more in the last four years than it did in the previous 20 years. I wonder if that kind of exponential growth is sustainable?

[Are Be]

...
Construction cranes have been roosting in downtown Toronto in significant number for years. But they have mainly worked to supply a seemingly insatiable local demand for new condominium towers.

Now, for the first time in more than a decade, Toronto could see construction of a major office tower ...

In contrast to the bleak outlook that dominated the past decade, the time seems right for new office construction. The vacancy rate in downtown Toronto office buildings is down to 9 per cent, making it a landlord's market. And the vacancy rate for high-end, top-of-the—line office space is even lower, hovering between 5 per cent and 6 per cent.

Prospects seem bright.

There is even a chance that construction cranes will reappear at the long dormant Bay-Adelaide Centre site. That would signal a true renaissance of office development in Toronto's downtown core.
.

Let's hope BA gets going!
However, I am not certain that there will be that many tall office buildings built, as medium sized companies would rather pay less rent in a building with their own name on it (Are Be Centre). Let's get some mixed- use towers on the go!

[neilio]

Damn i hope BA announces something soon...after all the people at brookfield did say an announcment soon is a big possibility!! I think a developer should put together a 1400 supertall using 1/3rd offics, 1/3rd residential and 1/3rd Hotel...it CAN be done and be profitable with the current market for condo's, 5 star hotels and now office!

[Mechie]

^ well if u say it can be done it must be true. you should forward ur request to them and simply command them to do it.

[Are Be]

Well, OK, that's like demanding 905'ers to move downtown, and not offering them $100,000 to make up the added cost of real estate.

However, it's not the worst possible idea. Plus, the base is built. Further, why not make use of the $500 million already put into a foundation for a 'super tall.'

I think it would be hard to get as many medium sized companies to sign on to get a support tall office tower built, but a combo tower may make better use of what is there and paid for.

[samsonyuen]

That's great in the skyline! I can't wait...it's nice to see a non-condo skyscraper!

[Jaye101]

So this is ganna be much west of the cluster. niiiiiice.

[snoopy]

So this is ganna be much west of the cluster. niiiiiice.

not much... maybe two or so blocks.. but it will have significant impact on the waterfront skyline view and also slowly but surely extend the cluster towards the CN Tower. Hong Kong skyline here we come! (hopefully)

[Jackhammer]

Screw Brookfield, just e-mail Cadillac-Fairview and tell them to stack the new tower on top of Ritz. Neilio gets his 1400 ft tower, Cadillac-Fairview can sell the extra land and make some money ... everyone will be happy:)

[Buster]

not much... maybe two or so blocks.. but it will have significant impact on the waterfront skyline view and also slowly but surely extend the cluster towards the CN Tower. Hong Kong skyline here we come! (hopefully)

I find it interesting how a couple of blocks can change the way our skyline looks! If it was built three blocks east, it wouldn't make a lick of difference but its proposed location really helps to fill things out nicely.

Now if only the Trump building were located slightly west of the main cluster. . .

[Are Be]

Three new towers: Ritz, 'Simcoe II by any other name' and Festival Tower, and that's not including Mini-Vancouver spreading from the Skydome to Fort York!

[cassius]

Festival Tower will barely be visible in the typical skyline (from the south) shot. Shangri-La will definitely have a larger impact.

Here's a list of what I believe to be skyline-defining upcoming towers & developments:
Hummingbird Tower
Maple Leaf Square towers
Shangri-La
Ritz-Carlton and accompanying office tower
Signature Tower
CityPlace West
New Fort York Neighbourhood

[Travis007]

^^Plus that 500ft+ 151 Front Street Office proposal if that is a serious proposal.

Trump, Sapphire, and BA will have minimal if any impact at all and Festival will have just as much skyline prominance as Metro Hall. But Ritz, Simcoe Place II, and Shangri-La will fill in that gap nicely.

[neilio]

Screw Brookfield, just e-mail Cadillac-Fairview and tell them to stack the new tower on top of Ritz. Neilio gets his 1400 ft tower, Cadillac-Fairview can sell the extra land and make some money ... everyone will be happy:)

yaaay!! wahooo....although i would much rather have my desing used...i mean 2 towers stacked on each other would look kinda wonky lmao lol.

[The Mad Hatter!!]

Provoke while you can, the irrational exuberance of your market will implode in the not to distant future. :angel: How much has the value of condominiums in Miami increased over the last five or six years?
if ours explodes theres a good chance yours will also,and i believe there more office space proposed in miami then in toronto,

anyways back to the topic,like the tower very classy looking i'm hoping it doesn't look to bulky and why is cadillac fairview being so conservative,they should just propose a 50 story office building, proposing a 38 story building which could be raised to 48 makes them seem like punks,come on this is toronto were talking about the office space will get filled sooner than later.

[Mr Man]

if ours explodes theres a good chance yours will also,and i believe there more office space proposed in miami then in toronto,

anyways back to the topic,like the tower very classy looking i'm hoping it doesn't look to bulky and why is cadillac fairview being so conservative,they should just propose a 50 story office building, proposing a 38 story building which could be raised to 48 makes them seem like punks,come on this is toronto were talking about the office space will get filled sooner than later.

^ Canadian companies and banks are more conservative - which might be a good thing as the real estate market may be more stable in the long-run.

So if Miami does implode, Toronto may not necessarily meet the same fate.

[Are Be]

\Who the hell cares if Toronto or Miami has more towers?

Anyway, the fact is that there has been very little commercial towers built in Toronto for the past 15 years. Condos galore, but not much in the way of office towers. Perhaps this will change.
I, for one, foresee great many 18 story buildings going up, neither one being all that great, but the combined effect being quite something --- see Tokyo: Horizon to horizon of crap, medium sized buildings.

[neilio]

^ well if u say it can be done it must be true. you should forward ur request to them and simply command them to do it.

Oh i will!! you just watch i will! hahahaha

[Bertez]

Can't wait till next next year

[rise_against]

\
I, for one, foresee great many 18 story buildings going up, neither one being all that great, but the combined effect being quite something --- see Tokyo: Horizon to horizon of crap, medium sized buildings.
who wants that?

[rt_0891]

^^ It's still better than banal parking lots.

[Jaye101]

Yeah, it is.

ALMOST A THOUSAND POSTS!

[Bertez]

^^Jay, your almost there:D:D

[Skybean]

Keep on filling the forum with useless posts and you'll make it. That's how I do it.

[Travis007]

who wants that?

No one really wants mid-rise office projects built instead of talls but it all depends on the office market and demand. Are Be's vision of 18 or so storey office buildings filling the many parking lots in downtown is actually a realistic idea. The whole stretch next to the main cluster along Simcoe or so is literally empty, I wouldn't mind at all seeing nicely designed office buildings like the new Canada Life Tower built along the empty stretches of downtown. I think future taller office developments should be built around the ACC.

[rapideye95]

^^^ POST's don't mean a thing...so who cares....it's what you bring to the table

[partybits]

Don't be so hard on him, he's wanted to hit 1000 for awhile, besides it's funny!

[snoopy]

Don't be so hard on him, he's wanted to hit 1000 for awhile, besides it's funny!

you're just defending him cuz you're coming up to 1,000 NEXT. =P lol good luck!

[Hillis]

noobs :P

[partybits]

you're just defending him cuz you're coming up to 1,000 NEXT. =P lol good luck!

Did'nt even notice it actually until Rapideye made his post...then I looked at my numbers and holy shit...I'm almost at 1000...lol

[Jaye101]

^^^ POST's don't mean a thing...so who cares....it's what you bring to the table

Shut up "MR. Eight Hundred and Fifty"

lol :jk:

[Travis007]

Oh well, I got the most posts out of you guys, therefore I'm the best. ;)

[valantino]

I've lost over a thousand since I joined. Do they still count?

[neilio]

Oh well, I got the most posts out of you guys, therefore I'm the best. ;)

ya well my farts smell better then yours so im better then you hahahaha!

[SD]

The base looks like an area of concern for this tower.

[valantino]

^it could be considered a little low but I imagine the towers, in reality, will be closer together than the rendering suggests

[Taller, Better]

Yeah, it is.

ALMOST A THOUSAND POSTS!
Give WANCH a couple of more weeks and he/she will be
up to 1000! :)

[Lucky 24]

Enough about the meaningless post counts. Have you ever heard the legend of the ones who tend to celebrate their post counts seem to mysteriously see their post count cut in half the next day? :devil:

[neilio]

Enough about the meaningless post counts. Have you ever heard the legend of the ones who tend to celebrate their post counts seem to mysteriously see their post count cut in half the next day? :devil:

haha thats funny...somehow i believe you

[G_DOG]

btw on the royal lepage site bay adelaide has 9 floors and 200,000 sq ft leased already

[valantino]

^DUDE - DONT YOU THINK THATS WORTHY OF A NEW THREAD!!!!!!!!!! ;)

[neilio]

^DUDE - DONT YOU THINK THATS WORTHY OF A NEW THREAD!!!!!!!!!! ;)

hhhmmm.....do you think it is? or is this a stupid question?haha

[G_DOG]

^DUDE - DONT YOU THINK THATS WORTHY OF A NEW THREAD!!!!!!!!!! ;)

i was going to ,but i put it in here because in every article about wellington square ther is a mention of BA all the time and i didnt feel like starting a new thread

[valantino]

In all seriousness (and I'm presuming your information is from the development .pdf) it doesn't necessarily mean a lease has been sign when the building size and available space do not add up but I do hope you're right

[shreddog]

If you go back a couple years, that same builing is listed at 400,000sq ft, 18 stories, 22,000 floor plate, available to lease = 400,000 sq ft, lead tenat size = n/a.

Now it says 600,000sq ft, 18 stories, 22,000 floor plate, available to lease = 400,000 sq ft, lead tenat size = n/a.

I'm thinking sloppy fingers, cause 18 floors at 22,000 floor plate don't give ya 600K.

[mckarisma]

\Who the hell cares if Toronto or Miami has more towers?

Anyway, the fact is that there has been very little commercial towers built in Toronto for the past 15 years. Condos galore, but not much in the way of office towers. Perhaps this will change.
I, for one, foresee great many 18 story buildings going up, neither one being all that great, but the combined effect being quite something --- see Tokyo: Horizon to horizon of crap, medium sized buildings.

That might have something to do with the constant threat of earthquakes and being on a fault line. Something we don't have to worry about here thankfully! :)

[Are Be]

Good point ---but they do have many 40+ buildings too, but the skyline is made of 18 ish story buildings - everywhere!
And who occupies these crappy little office buildings? The medium sized companies of the world's second largest economy, that's who! And they are delighted to have their name the building, and pay less rent than in an 80 story building, etc.

Maritime Life is the textbook archetype of what is to come: Façadism - save the front f of what ws there, and stick an 18 story glass box on top. The anchor tenant is nothing ot sneeze at medium sized company that simply cannot justify being the anchor tenant in an 80 story building. But it most certainly can justify paying less rent and increasing the prestige of the company by having Your Company's Name Here Centre on the letterhead, etc. (Classic "Are Be Centre" for you with too much knowledge.)

POINT: less BA, more Maritime Life. Why would Maritime Life want to pay more to be in the BA Centre, Until you come up with a compelling reason, BA Cetre type buildings will be few and far between (Like in Tokyo.)

[valantino]

Doesn't take a genius to realize 18 storeys is more commonly built than 40 (regardless if it is office, hotel, residential, mixed use, etc.)

[Travis007]

Cadillac Fairview tower to end Toronto dry spell

First major office project in 14 years expected to spark downtown development

ELIZABETH CHURCH

REAL ESTATE REPORTER

Cadillac Fairview Corp. Ltd. will announce today that it is ready to start building a new tower in Toronto, ending a 14-year drought in major downtown office construction in Canada's largest city and kicking off an expected wave of activity in that market.

The new tower will be located west of the financial district at Simcoe and Wellington Streets and will be built as part of a new Ritz-Carlton hotel and condominium project that will rise beside it on the site.

Cadillac Fairview, along with a handful of rival developers, has had plans for a Toronto tower on the books for several months, but was unwilling to break ground without first leasing a sizable block of space. "No one is going to put up a building in Toronto without a major tenant," one real estate executive said recently. "Everyone is being extremely cautious in this market."

The Royal Trust unit of Royal Bank of Canada is widely expected to be the lead tenant of the project, sources in the industry said, with final approval of the deal reached last week.

Royal Trust currently has its name on one of the towers of the Toronto-Dominion Centre, another building owned by Cadillac Fairview, the commercial real estate arm of Ontario Teachers Pension Plan.

Today's announcement will likely be the first of two or three new Toronto office developments to be announced this year.

Telus Corp. also is in the final stages of negotiating a leasing deal with privately owned Menkes Developments that would see its name on a new tower to the west of the Air Canada Centre, real estate sources say. That tower would be next to the railway lines and would be linked to Union Station through an underground tunnel. The move would give the Vancouver-based company a new, higher profile in the Toronto market.

A spokeswoman for Telus said the company cannot comment on the matter while negotiations are still taking place.

Today's announcement by Cadillac Fairview marks a turning point for Toronto and the beginning of what one real estate executive called a "mini development wave" in a city that has seen little new downtown office space in recent years.

"In the Toronto core the race is now on," Blake Hutcheson, president of CB Richard Ellis in Canada said recently. Higher rents and lower vacancy rates are creating a market where office construction in downtown again makes sense, he told an industry forum earlier this month.

Demand for office space in Toronto's financial core spiked in the first quarter, numbers from Cushman & Wakefield LePage show, sending vacancy rates down to 6.7 per cent from 7.9 per cent the previous quarter, the biggest drop in five years.

"We haven't seen this kind of confidence in a number of years," said Paul Morse, the firm's senior vice-president in charge of leasing.

The newest building to go up in Toronto's financial core is the mid-sized Maritime Life Tower constructed by the former O&Y Properties Corp. in 2003. A few others also have been built on the edges of the downtown's central office area, but the bulk of downtown construction in recent years has been in the city's booming condominium market.

The last major office building to rise in the downtown was the Bay Wellington Tower of BCE Place, finished in March, 1992.

Plans for this latest building were outlined by Cadillac Fairview last fall in a bid to get the jump on rival projects. They call for a 48-storey, $400-million project with 1.2 million square feet of space, slightly smaller than the city's current bank towers. More details of the project are expected in an announcement from the company this morning.

For months, three or four possible new office projects have jockeyed for position -- and major tenants -- in a race to be the first project out of the gate.

Brookfield Properties also is on the hunt for tenants so that it can begin construction on a revised version of its long-dormant Bay-Adelaide Centre.

[Travis007]

from the web page of Cadillac-Fairview....

48-storey Office Tower Announced

CF will develop beside Toronto’s first five-star hotel.


Cadillac Fairview announced today that it would develop a 48-storey, Class AAA office tower with 1.2 million sq. ft. of commercial space on land immediately adjacent to the planned Ritz-Carlton Hotel and Residences on Wellington Street in downtown Toronto. At an estimated construction value of $400 million, the office tower will complement the existing Simcoe Place, located at the northwest corner of Simcoe and Front Streets.
“Our core business is to develop best-in-class retail, office and mixed-use developments in unique, dynamic urban centres,” said Peter Sharpe, President and CEO. “This site is adjacent to Toronto’s financial and entertainment districts. And, the office tower will stand right beside The Ritz-Carlton Hotel, providing a built-in clientele for the hotel.”

The new office is a follow-up to an announcement made in the spring 2005 by the Ritz-Carlton Hotel Company, LLC. At this time, plans were revealed to build a 53-storey Hotel and Residences complex, valued at $325-million. This will be built on the same Wellington Street site as the office tower as part of a joint venture with Cadillac Fairview and Graywood Developments.

The elegant tower will have 267 five-star hotel rooms, 135 luxury condominiums and a five-storey podium containing conference and meeting facilities, fine-dining restaurants and a full-service spa.

The sales office for the hotel opened in October and on the site in early October. Construction on both towers is expected to start in 2006, with completion in 2009.

[camel_trainer]

Here's the location, I'm under the impression both buildings will stand side by side, with the podiums facing north (on Wellington), on the south west corner of Simcoe and Wellington on what is now a parking lot in this pic. According to the rendering (below), it looks like the office tower will sit to the east of the hotel. Any objections?

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3941/simcoeandfront7ly.gif (http://imageshack.us)

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1284/ritzandcftower5uh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[snoopy]

i'm so glad... this office/hotel development combo will be a great addition to toronto and its East-West skyline. I'm glad it got off the ground first, although i wish Telus would go into the Bay Adelaide centre project instead of menkes

looking forward to seeeing the twins (not identical) rise soon.

[p5archit]

This is great news! I am however, still confused as to where exactly on that parcel the towers will be located?

If i am correct then this is what will happen:

- The Ritz Tower will be built where the park is now located, with its entrance podium fronting onto Wellington?

- The Cadillac Fairview tower would be built on the northeast corner of the parking lot, directly behind Simcoe Place-?

So according to my assumption, does this mean that the park beside CBC will be removed or changed?

Maybe someone can explain if i am incorrect?

Thanks

[valantino]

(The park doesn't extend all the way north to Wellington)

Ritz on a parking lot directly north of the park
Office tower on a parking lot directly north of Simcoe Place

[valantino]

stubby ... but I prefer it


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a234/mark3333/RBC.jpg

[Nihilist]

It looks like what they might have done is chopped some sqaure footage off the top of the building and added it to the podium. Instead of a taller building with a smaller podium we get a shorter building with a larger podium. If in fact this building is now only 43 stories.

[Travis007]

Looks stubbier in that new rendering but Ed has confirmed the height will be 610 feet with the podium part being 9s and the tower 34s combining to make 43 storeys, still great new nonetheless that for the first time in 14 years we're finally getting a tall office tower impact the neighbourhood and skyline! :)

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a234/mark3333/RBC.jpg

BTW, the podium seems to be a great improvement over the old design and will help create a nice streetwall along Wellington:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Switzer/image_preview.jpg

[rise_against]

I dont know if i love that podium. Maybe its the contrast between the beige and the blue. But the tower looks awsome.

[p5archit]

Valentino: Is that parking lot actually that deep? Every time i have walked past there, I have not noticed there being that much space, especially if the tower is to be located so far back- i could be wrong though...

Also, does anyone know if they are planning any sort of landscaping inbetween the two buildings?

The office tower looks fine and should be a welcome addition to the area, which i have to admit is and has become rather windswept..


p5

[samsonyuen]

I like it, it'll fit in with the area nicely.

[Ed007Toronto]

The podium reminds me a little like the last Sapphire version.

RBC will be the seventh tallest building in the city (eighth if Ritz is built at the same time). The lot isn't that big so stubby it won't be.

Pretty cool and it will come starting July!

[thryve]

I would've preferred the old design, as well as height, but obviously this is the better plan.

I think it's exciting to see something other than just a condo in one of these threads, as nice as condos are. :)

-thryve

[Filip]

Pfff... looks odly REALLY fat...

[superman987]

This is great news, but the building does look really stubby. How tall was the original proposal?

[Travis007]

^^The original proposal varied in height anywhere from 30 storeys to 48 depending on the market demand, so comprising at 43 is pretty good.

[Filip]

LOL I can't stop looking at that updated rendering and the original one from October. It looks sooooooo damn FAT FAT FAT eeeek.... If only they did the podium AND height... We'd have one of the best looking bastards in Canada...:(

[rise_against]

its not fat though at all...in fact it will be sleek looking. That render does a bad job showing the height.

[Travis007]

It's a pretty bad rendering I guess, it's just 5 storeys shorter than the original proposal. It'll be 43 storeys and it's an office tower so it'll be 610 feet which adds more height to Toronto's skyline.

[elliot]

"600 foot office tower for sale... any takers? 600 feet, no it's not a 1000 footer but it's brand new... any takers...? St. Louis? Detroit? Seattle? Vancouver? Halifax? Miami? Dallas? Houston? Kansas City? San Diego? Phillie?

Boston???


600 footer for sale.... Toronto is bummed out... cut-rate prices... any takers??

600 footer for sale...."

:cheers: Hate smilies but this one is the essence of me.

[Filip]

Meh... STILL I dunno i like the original more...

Sue me...

[valantino]

Is that parking lot actually that deep? Every time i have walked past there, I have not noticed there being that much space, especially if the tower is to be located so far back- i could be wrong though...

it's a fairly deep lot and I don't think the tower is as set back from the street as the rendering suggests

[Bertez]

I still love it;);)

[Skybean]

That is a sexy base. They should animate the corporate logo. We need more of these HQ glassy scrapers to counterbalance some of the concrete slabs.

[Filip]

Slowly I'm getting more and more accustomed to this tower. I of course prefered the taller version, maybe it's just a bad rendering, but that tower looks WAY shorter than 43 storeys. The base looks incredible... It has that head office feel, it's an expensive, landmark development. Finally RBC will also have their logo high above the streets of downtown Canada. It will be joined sooner or later with a Telus logo. Who knows, this may be the start of a very very significant office boom...

I'm keeping my fingers crossed...

Edit: The base is apparently 400 000 sqf, no wonder it shrunk in height... This is still a 1.2 million sqf development... I mean WHY waste that sqf ON THE BASE!!
Oh well... you can't get anything the way you want it:(

[Taller, Better]

I would've preferred the old design, as well as height, but obviously this is the better plan.

I think it's exciting to see something other than just a condo in one of these threads, as nice as condos are. :)

-thryve

Proportionally, it is a bit stubby now.. I, too, preferred the original
design. However, as long as the darn thing gets built, that is the main
thing. It is still a very elegant building.

[Metroland]

I think the base makes it alot stubbier looking than it is in reality.

[Brighter Hell]

Edit: The base is apparently 400 000 sqf, no wonder it shrunk in height... This is still a 1.2 million sqf development... I mean WHY waste that sqf ON THE BASE!!
i'd take a shorter tower with a stronger base over a taller tower with weak street interaction any day of the week. the street is more important than the sky.

[Filip]

i'd take a shorter tower with a stronger base over a taller tower with weak street interaction any day of the week. the street is more important than the sky.
I agree the original base was weak.. But this is overkill...

[valantino]

"I mean WHY waste that sqf ON THE BASE!!"


*HINT* built to suit

[p5archit]

Valantino: you are probably right-i probably shouldn't consider the rendering to be 100% accurate-thanks!


The base is fine and i have to agree that in this case a shorter tower with a bulkier, more present base is better for the street- at least visually. Also, with the Ritz podium next door, the street will feel a lot more like a street and less empty-!


p5

[camel_trainer]

"However, as long as the darn thing gets built, that is the main
thing."

True. It is a bit strange that they are choosing bulk and a podium over height, though. Conventional thinking would suggest that the biggest bank would want a tall tower. As long as it's nice, though, I can live with a shorter building (haha, like they give a s**t what I think). The two buildings side by side will also be much more spectacular than just one.

[Jackhammer]

I recall and article that stated contruction would allow for additonal storeys to be added later if there is market demand. So maybe we could still get 48s in the end.

[valantino]

"True. It is a bit strange that they are choosing bulk and a podium over height, though. Conventional thinking would suggest that the biggest bank would want a tall tower."

you're conventional thinking couldn't be more wrong as the banks for most of their operations are looking for the lowest rents and the largest floorplates. The redesign is much more likely to be about meeting the needs of the tenant than improving its street presence (somewhat stating the obvious )

[valantino]

"I recall and article that stated contruction would allow for additonal storeys to be added later if there is market demand. So maybe we could still get 48s in the end"

its possible floors could be added during construction but very unlikely once the tower is occupied

[camel_trainer]

"True. It is a bit strange that they are choosing bulk and a podium over height, though. Conventional thinking would suggest that the biggest bank would want a tall tower."

you're conventional thinking couldn't be more wrong as the banks for most of their operations are looking for the lowest rents and the largest floorplates. The redesign is much more likely to be about meeting the needs of the tenant than improving its street presence (somewhat stating the obvious )

Actually, my conventional thinking could have been a lot more wrong. I could have said, for example, "Conventional thinking would suggest that the biggest bank would want to actually construct the building out of millions of rolls of coins, because that is what they store in their vaults, and therefore it is readily available and symbolic of the business they are in."

In other words, you exaggerated how off base my point was. I agree that there are other factors involved in choosing the building design besides height, but considering each of the tallest buildings in the city are bank towers, it's not that ridiculous to suggest that Canada's largest bank would want to join them in having a very tall skyscraper. If not the tallest.

Maybe it isn't the case here, but I don't care how much you know about commercial leasing, it's still not that off base to suggest that. If you don't believe me, go out for drinks with a bunch of investment bankers and you'll see that that kind of stuff matters to them.

[superman987]

When completed is it going to be called RBC center. I heard them on the news yesterday refer to it as that.

[valantino]

"In other words, you exaggerated how off base my point was. I agree that there are other factors involved in choosing the building design besides height, but considering each of the tallest buildings in the city are bank towers, it's not that ridiculous to suggest that Canada's largest bank would want to join them in having a very tall skyscraper. If not the tallest. "

wow testy

P.S. The big banks (including their investment arms) continue to move further and further away from the prime class AAA space in the city's tallest towers - they now belong to law firms and others


"go out for drinks with a bunch of investment bankers and you'll see that that kind of stuff matters to them."

LOL >>> investment bankers, financial consultants are trained to be quite content with a small cubicle for themselves

[camel_trainer]

wow testy



yyyep. Can't stand it when people post things in a pompous tone.

[rbt]

The big banks (including their investment arms) continue to move further and further away from the prime class AAA space in the city's tallest towers - they now belong to law firms and others
This is natural. Once this industry is fully commoditized, they will likely be located at the fringes of the city where we currently keep our manufacturers.

[Ed007Toronto]

The big banks (including their investment arms) continue to move further and further away from the prime class AAA space in the city's tallest towers

Nonsense.

Maybe for back office stuff but certainly not for head office jobs. The five banks occupy huge amounts of prime space in the bank towers and that isn't changing. The Royal Bank headquarters is not moving to this location. It will remain at Bay and Front.

[valantino]

"Nonsense.

Maybe for back office stuff but certainly not for head office jobs. The five banks occupy huge amounts of prime space in the bank towers and that isn't changing. The Royal Bank headquarters is not moving to this location. It will remain at Bay and Front"

I know of a number of high level, head office positions that are housed in non-descript Class A and even B space throughout the financial core which a couple decades earlier would of been found only in the most prominent locations but maybe ... (hey, just recently returned to Bay Street after a fairly long hiatus and don't plan on staying too long)

[valantino]

"Can't stand it when people post things in a pompous tone."

I can't stand people who get offended by the suggestion that their thinking is off base and resort to the absolutely ridiculous (camel trainer post: 175) to rebuild

[camel_trainer]

"Can't stand it when people post things in a pompous tone."

I can't stand people who get offended by the suggestion that their thinking is off base and resort to the absolutely ridiculous (camel trainer post: 175) to rebuild

First of all, I said I can't stand IT - the occurrence - of people posting in a pompous tone. I never said I couldn't stand the person.

Anyway, I'm over it. I said my piece.

[elliot]

So give it up...I admit it I'm curious... camel trainer = what???

Feel free to post your answer in the beat-off thread... I mean the off-beat thread.

[valantino]

"First of all, I said I can't stand IT - the occurrence - of people posting in a pompous tone. I never said I couldn't stand the person. "

I know you did but I see no difference between "an occurrence of self-importance" and "a pompous individual"

[valantino]

July 23 2006

new sign says the parking lot will close on August 1

[metroboi_nay]

thanks for the update Valantino :)

[LordMandeep]

ITS STARTING!!!!!!!!! :scouserd:

http://chartattack.com/ed/RBCCentre-July23,06(2).jpg

[Martinsizon]

Great News :)

Valintino do you know if this includes Ritz and RBC Centre or just RBC Centre

From Suicidal Gingerbread Man on UT:

PURPOSE OF THE APPLICATION:
The site is located at the north-west corner of the block ("the Broadcast Block" bounded by Wellington Street
West to the north, Front Street West to the south, Simcoe Street to the east, and John Street to the west. The
applicant is seeking relief from the provisions of Zoning By-law 438-86, as amended, and Site Specific By-law
637-88 to construct on the site a 41 storey office tower with ground level retail and service uses located within a
10 storey podium base.

[Ed007Toronto]

Nice picture LordMandeep.

[LordMandeep]

its not mine its from Urban Toronto.

[Ed007Toronto]

I know since I took it :)

[Skybean]

Nice, the death of another surface lot. By next year the sky will be filled with cranes.

But I wish it were taller.

(cue valantino..)

[valantino]

"(cue valantino..)"


Honestly, I agree ;) - this particular design will look stumpy with a 28000 square foot floorplate and beside a 10 storey podium

"Valintino do you know if this includes Ritz and RBC Centre or just RBC Centre"

I haven't a clue and not sure how the two lots relate to one another (if they share the same entrance and/or pay booth)

P.S. I'm living - gaining brownie points - through Ed photos

[Istrian]

Festival Tower will barely be visible in the typical skyline (from the south) shot. Shangri-La will definitely have a larger impact.

Here's a list of what I believe to be skyline-defining upcoming towers & developments:
Hummingbird Tower
Maple Leaf Square towers
Shangri-La
Ritz-Carlton and accompanying office tower
Signature Tower
CityPlace West
New Fort York Neighbourhood

...plus Liberty Village, Distillery district and West Don Lands...
not so tall though but it'll significantly improve the skyline:scouserd:

[Martinsizon]

Next Tuesday Construction starts and we no so little details of it.(i.e is Ritz included)

[Bertez]

Sooo...is it 43 stories including the 9 storey base, or is it 43 stories plus the 9 stories..... because if it is the later, it would mean this building would be at 220 metres, instead of 186.......

[Martinsizon]

Do i have to show this again

From Suicidal Gingerbread Man on UT:

PURPOSE OF THE APPLICATION:
The site is located at the north-west corner of the block ("the Broadcast Block" bounded by Wellington Street
West to the north, Front Street West to the south, Simcoe Street to the east, and John Street to the west. The
applicant is seeking relief from the provisions of Zoning By-law 438-86, as amended, and Site Specific By-law
637-88 to construct on the site a 41 storey office tower with ground level retail and service uses located within a
10 storey podium base.[/QUOTE]

[Bertez]

Martin....my bad;);).....thanks for the info....

[LordMandeep]

next tuesday is Aug,1st and the pics say the aprking lot is closed Aug 1st.

[Filip]

Ok so like.. Is it a 41 storey tower or a 51 storey tower (41 tower + 10 podium)? This shit's confusing...

Although this building is ALREADY stumpy (aka the former 48s vs 43s) any lower and I'm really gonna hate it.

[rakesh]

As I much as I love Toronto and the Canadians, I believe it's time to go 300m+ and 400m+ for T.O... and make some effort in the designing department. Please no more rectangular boxes. They are bland... Go the China or Dubai way (in terms of height). Mix things up. Modern architecture plus elements of Native American and European style.

[salvius]

^ Dubai? China? Noo....

[Skybean]

While there are some spectacular projects happening in Dubai and in China, Toronto also has some nice designs. Have you taken a look at the Toronto Boom Rundown thread? Hummingbird.

I suppose if there was a huge spire tacked on, you Aussies would think that this building would look just superb, no?

[Martinsizon]

I must say i want a tall building with a spire on it in TO, and trump does the job.

[elliot]

I must say i want a tall building with a spire on it in TO, and trump does the job.



I want a huge spire with a building on it.


Ooops. We already did that. Happy Birthday CN Tower, you beautiful patchy wonder (3 times taller than Space needle... why is it called a needle anyway? Space Plunger is more like it).

[Dino Domingo]

As I much as I love Toronto and the Canadians, I believe it's time to go 300m+ and 400m+ for T.O... and make some effort in the designing department. Please no more rectangular boxes. They are bland... Go the China or Dubai way (in terms of height). Mix things up. Modern architecture plus elements of Native American and European style.

I agree completely. Toronto's architecture isn't the most inspiring. Dubai and China are excellent examples of cities that take chances, look into the future, and design post-modern structures. They are models for the world.

[valantino]

"As I much as I love Toronto and the Canadians, I believe it's time to go 300m+ and 400m+ for T.O... and make some effort in the designing department. Please no more rectangular boxes. They are bland... Go the China or Dubai way (in terms of height). Mix things up. Modern architecture plus elements of Native American and European style."


You do realize the Europeans are basically building higher quality Toronto boxy designs

As to Dubai architecture, (and in general Asian)

While I like some of the photos/renderings of the individual towers, I actually feel the onset of nausea whenever the grouping of towers along 'that highway' are pictured - just too much going for an often influenced eye to see

And, I'm sure the regulars are already aware height is pretty far down my list when it comes to aestetics

[LordMandeep]

http://p083.ezboard.com/ftorontoskyscraperforumfrm4.showMessageRange?topicID=4819.topic&start=141&stop=141

http://chartattack.com/ed/RBCCentre-Aug1,06(6).jpg

Pics of construction, taken by Ed007Toronto from urban Toronto. Thanks!

[WinnipegPatriot]

Australia is building with the asian influence revealing very striking, glitzy cities....Russia too! Poor Canada--so bloody conservative in its architecture.

http://www.meritonapartments.com.au/ecms/userdata/meriton/images/world_tower_exterior_1_small.jpg

http://www.designbuild-network.com/projects/eureka/images/EUREKA-2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/de/2599.jpg/384px-2599.jpg

http://archinect.com/images/uploads/moscowtower.jpg

We are stuck in rut. These cities are reinventing themselves by building jewels to be marvelled at.

[Taller, Better]

eeeewww.. I have no desire for our city's architecture to turn into that of an Asian city. Australia is going that route and good for them, but it does not appeal to me.

[valantino]

http://archinect.com/images/uploads/moscowtower.jpg

watch it Moscow - don't want to piss Kim Jung-il off

[neilio]

wtf...lol honestly they can built all the asian shit they want, all those towers are over done, Ritz and RBC are beautiful in that they are not just boring boxes but they arnt to much either. Australia keeps building all these asian style towers as if its trying to prove something, we dont need to prove anything, we have a big company that needs a big tower so we build a big tower...we build out of nessecity here in Canada, people wonder why the WHOLE WORLD is going through a "building boom"..well lets just say its a huge ass penis contest to say hey look at me..i doubte 90% of the buildings dont even get filled. While we build out of neccesity the rest of the world builds because of penis envy...which expains why all those other countries are "taking chances as you say" they are COPYING, doing what they think they need to get noticed..over here we couldnt give 2 shits!!

[neilio]

http://www.meritonapartments.com.au/ecms/userdata/meriton/images/world_tower_exterior_1_small.jpg

wtf is that...looks like an architect got abit obssesed with lego one day.

[Filip]

I'm still dying to know the height of RBC - is it 41 or 51?

Btw I'm kind of surprised CF hasn't held a media ceremony for the groundbreaking. Maybe they're gonna wait a while? (like Brookfield)

[Taller, Better]

http://www.meritonapartments.com.au/ecms/userdata/meriton/images/world_tower_exterior_1_small.jpg

wtf is that...looks like an architect got abit obssesed with lego one day.

I am not a fan of that Frankenstein building.

[rakesh]

I said, follow Dubai and China as far as height is concerned. Design wise, be unique different and daring. Toronto is known for its multiculturalism; then why not adopt that quality when designing buildings. And FYI, buildings can be daring without being cheesy.

[Taller, Better]

I said, follow Dubai and China as far as height is concerned. Design wise, be unique different and daring. Toronto is known for its multiculturalism; then why not adopt that quality when designing buildings. And FYI, buildings can be daring without being cheesy.

Oh, I know all about buildings being daring without being cheesy... but it is a fine line and many new buildings in the world have crossed that line into kitch. I just maintain that when form trumps function, the building becomes novelty, and we very quickly tire of novelty! If you don't believe me look at some of the monstrous PoMo buildings that were built in a gaudy fever... Holiday Inn King St.... step right up. I would happily see taller buildings being built, though.. no doubt about it, but I just think rotating buildings, etc.. are becoming cliche.
I just realized, there is no "name" for this current craze of novelty shaped buildings ( dildos, walkie-talkies, toasters, corkscrews, etc...). Perhaps we should come up with a name for this kitchen-kitch style of architecture!

[urban 2.0]

Construction has started... backhoe today was starting to tear up the pavement right infront of the loading docks! Hurray... take that BA Stump.

[Filip]

Can someone call the city to check its height? Come on people, this can be either a dissapointment or simply thrilling!

[WinnipegPatriot]

A look at Toronto's skyline (for the most part) inspires a yawn. It needs the addition of some modern dramatic skyscrapers which, contrary to Taller, Better's poor taste and vision, will not be "dated". I guess the folks in NY will be kicking themselves in a year or two for building skyscrapers that will be "dated".

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8b/Ecotower.jpg

http://renewnyc.com/images_WMS/freedom_tower/hudson_night.jpg

http://www.80southstreet.net/images/exhibit_r4_c1.jpg

http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/613.jpg

http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/892.jpg

Chicago, too, will regret being bold right?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5e/Ib5.jpg/800px-Ib5.jpg



Sydney's World Tower is a nice change....

http://www.emporis.com/files/transfer/sixwm/2005/02/341440.jpg

[valantino]

I'd say a yawn from you can only be a good thing

I don't understand you're fascination with World Tower but it not like Toronto isn't getting something similarily crass when Metropolis is completed


hopefully, the free-formed BoA and Trade Centre will turn out better than Philly's Circa Centre which looked promising in the rendering but absolutely ridiculous (awkward to the ninth degree) at completion

[Taller, Better]

[QUOTE=WinnipegPatriot]A look at Toronto's skyline (for the most part) inspires a yawn. It needs the addition of some modern dramatic skyscrapers which, contrary to Taller, Better's poor taste and vision QUOTE]


I bought glasses to correct my poor vision, but I can do nothing about my poor taste!
Winnipeg, there is a time and place for everything, and I have no kick with those types of buildings being in other cities like Dubai, etc... but I just prefer the path we are on. If that inspires yawns from you then so be it!

[Marcanadian]

I guess the CN Tower didn't do anything for our skyline right?

[Taller, Better]

Don't get me wrong, I want supertalls and I want iconic architecture... I just don't want us to jump on the bandwagon and ape corkscrews going up in other cities, that's
all. When the CN Tower went up, it was not apeing anything.. it just did its own thing.
I am not saying I want everything to be a box, I just want things that will look handsome 20 years ago, and won't have people cringeing like I do when I look at the Holiday Inn on King St.

[WinnipegPatriot]

As Canada's largest and most important city, just as New York is to the US, Sydney to Australia, Toronto needs some incredibly tall landmark towers that are different from your average tower (such as Sydney's World Tower). Certainly shifting to this particular design for every tower to be built from today on is not what I am suggesting, but let's look at other cities around the world for some inspiration. I love World Tower because it is different...plus being very tall is cool too! Think of architecture as art. Major cities around the world are jumping on the bandwagon with regards to iconic architecture.

Another example that comes to mind is the proposed ECB Tower for Frankfurt.

http://www.coop-himmelblau.at/images/projects/ezb/ezb5.jpg

As for Metropolis, I had a 80 storey tower in mind, but nevertheless, it is a nice development!

This tower in being contructed in Warsaw reminds me of Toronto's Wellington Square proposal...so I am for the most part happy with some of TO's proposals, but I think we can strive for a little more flare! I am also happy with the Four Seasons development.


http://www.orcogroup.com/data/fotogalerie/e3117f7b-fa36-49c4-a2dc-f15ae628f6c7/images/1_Zlota-44_2.jpg

[caltrane74]

I like the Holiday Inn on King. Its so different. the Delta a