Nathan Phillips SQ. Intl' Competition

[p5archit]

Well the talk is supposedly over and now it is official, the City has finally launched an International Competition to redesign Nathan Phillips Square. According to reports, the cost for the project has been projected at $40 million. However, to date only $16 million have been set aside by the city and the rest, they are hoping will come from the private sector.

http://www.toronto.ca/npsquarecompetition/index.htm

Why not go it alone? If it is really not possible to finance then, why does the city not make this an equal public/ private partnership- 50/50? By putting up at least half of the cash needed for the project, the City would retain half the control of the project-

Instead, we are now in a position of possibly having the square renamed, but even worse controlled by private interests- which would lead me to believe that it is no longer a public space and therefore, left to the whims of private enterprise...

Ahh yes, gotta love our new Kellog's Nathan Phillips Rice Krispy Square(---s)- Open Mondays and Wednesdays from 8AM to 10AM
Closed all other times (Private Functions)
Thank you not for not disturbing!

p5

[Taller, Better]

I'm nervous as to how much they are going to tamper with the original design in the name of "modernisation". I read a silly article in yesterday's Post making it sound like NPS was a kind of third world disaster, and would this project finally be one that Toronto doesn't fail miserably at? Nonsense- just move the Terry Fox thing to a nice quiet park somewhere else, change the ugly skate rental box and integrate a permanent stage somewhere. Surely that will not cost $40 million. I'd like to see them use that money to repair and reopen the observation deck on City Hall that was just slammed shut when some tiles blew off, and I think they should repair the elevated walkway and not rip it down. There are a lot of ego-driven architects sharpening their knives to hack up the original design and put their own stamp on it. We'll likely see a few renderings with a forest of mature trees when everyone knows any trees planted will be miserable little saplings trying to survive in a concrete planter.

[Canadian Chocho]

I don't see NPS being horrible, it just needs a small tune up, now what's in front of it is horrid! (Sheraton Centre, and 2 other ugly buildings, waste of downtown property)

[monkeyronin]

NPS really could use a bit of work. right now its a little bland and hostile, so this is certainly good news.

[SOLOMON]

finally!!... good for Toronto.

[KGB]

There's really only one way to do it....restore it to it's origional design.

City hall and the square are one design...and Toronto's greatest and most origional mid-century modernist architecture (TD Centre is great, but derivative of many similar buildings by Mies).

Revelle was a brillient Finnish architect that worked under Aalvar Alto, and City Hall was the crowning glory of his very short career...he died at only 54, before it was completed. This makes City Hall quite a catch for Toronto...a rarity basically no ther city outside of Finnland can claim...and we have the best.

The first thing that should be done is remove that Peace Garden...no "additions" to art should ever done. The omly thing that can remain is the Archer, as this was actually part of the design...Revell and Henry Moore were personal friends and Revell felt that the building was not complete without a Moore sculpture, he considered it the crowning touch.

That low building that houses the skate rentals, bathrooms, stairwells to parking, etc looks kinda crappy...that could use some reworking. Take out the Peace Garden so the square looks the way it's supposed to...restore the elevated walkways and the pool/fountain/arches. Restore the grand cerimonial entrance to the top of the podium (what do you think that big ramp is for), as well as the roof of the podium...there's a lot of great open space there, because the square cosists of many levels...not just the street level part. It all works together...it just doesn't seem that way because it's all been fucked with.

Otherwise, it's incredibly simple to just restore everything to its origional condition...I don't see needing some international competition to accomplish that.

Oh...and get rid of that temporary stage crap...that is so crappy I don't even know what to say...and it's used often enough, it's practicall y there all the time.

It's too bad whoever could own the rights to his work couldn't just sue the shit out of the city for desicrating his art...just like Michael Snow did to the Eaton Centre for their crass treatment of his "Geese". If the people don't intervene to stop brainless politicians from ruining our city's built form, then we might as well pack it in. But then again, the public is basically brainless when it comes to modernist architecture anyway...they won't care until it's too late...like always.

Think I'm over-reacting? Of all places, you'd think City Hall, being so obvious, would at least be spared from the worse treatment...but no....they actually take an area under the elevated walkway...put chain-link fence around it, and actually use it for storage of various crap. That just floors me.








KGB

[CrazyCanuck]

I'm sure there are some untouchables that the city will not let the deisgners touch. The can restore but not remove them. A nice restoration is always nice.

[Tuscani01]

There's really only one way to do it....restore it to it's origional design.

City hall and the square are one design...and Toronto's greatest and most origional mid-century modernist architecture (TD Centre is great, but derivative of many similar buildings by Mies).

Revelle was a brillient Finnish architect that worked under Aalvar Alto, and City Hall was the crowning glory of his very short career...he died at only 54, before it was completed. This makes City Hall quite a catch for Toronto...a rarity basically no ther city outside of Finnland can claim...and we have the best.

The first thing that should be done is remove that Peace Garden...no "additions" to art should ever done. The omly thing that can remain is the Archer, as this was actually part of the design...Revell and Henry Moore were personal friends and Revell felt that the building was not complete without a Moore sculpture, he considered it the crowning touch.

That low building that houses the skate rentals, bathrooms, stairwells to parking, etc looks kinda crappy...that could use some reworking. Take out the Peace Garden so the square looks the way it's supposed to...restore the elevated walkways and the pool/fountain/arches. Restore the grand cerimonial entrance to the top of the podium (what do you think that big ramp is for), as well as the roof of the podium...there's a lot of great open space there, because the square cosists of many levels...not just the street level part. It all works together...it just doesn't seem that way because it's all been fucked with.

Otherwise, it's incredibly simple to just restore everything to its origional condition...I don't see needing some international competition to accomplish that.

Oh...and get rid of that temporary stage crap...that is so crappy I don't even know what to say...and it's used often enough, it's practicall y there all the time.

It's too bad whoever could own the rights to his work couldn't just sue the shit out of the city for desicrating his art...just like Michael Snow did to the Eaton Centre for their crass treatment of his "Geese". If the people don't intervene to stop brainless politicians from ruining our city's built form, then we might as well pack it in. But then again, the public is basically brainless when it comes to modernist architecture anyway...they won't care until it's too late...like always.

Think I'm over-reacting? Of all places, you'd think City Hall, being so obvious, would at least be spared from the worse treatment...but no....they actually take an area under the elevated walkway...put chain-link fence around it, and actually use it for storage of various crap. That just floors me.








KGB


Its not often that we agree, but I agree with every single thing you mentioned. Why change the square, its fine the way it is... some minor adjustments can do a lot for the space.

[urban 2.0]

Lets go all out and really change the square. I don't agree with this argument that we can't tamper with the 'post-modern' look. All civic squares around the world get transformed over time. War memorials get placed, streetcar tracks put in, markets, stores added.

Cities need to grow and evolve, NPS is rather a dull and dead place. It should be full of markets and patio bars. Part of the hinderence is the current configuration.

Change is good, as long as money is spent well.

[KGB]

NPS is rather a dull and dead place. It should be full of markets and patio bars.



I think that is a deadly attitude. For one, you are completely wrong about it being dull and dead...it's an architectural masterpeice, and it's full of people 365 days of the year...it's a true civic square, where people gather to express themselves...be it positively or negatively (protests). It's a place that is welcoming, and attracts large numbers of residents and tourists alike. Show me any city hall with as much activity.

It's a square, which the primary function is to provide an open space for "anything" to happen on...that's what a square is....want markets, patios and bars...go to Kensington.






KGB

[Dream Brother]

I'd hardly call it a masterpiece. It's about as bland as my butt cheeks. The square is blah and lacks colour and vibrance. What I think would look nice is if they painted the bottom of the reflecting pool a bluish colour like the fountains on University Avenue.

[Tuscani01]

I'd hardly call it a masterpiece. It's about as bland as my butt cheeks. The square is blah and lacks colour and vibrance. What I think would look nice is if they painted the bottom of the reflecting pool a bluish colour like the fountains on University Avenue.

I think that blue just makes the fountain look like a pool, I prefer the pond appearance which the fountain at city hall has. It looks more natural than the University Ave. fountains. What would be cool is if the concrete arches were painted a deep red colour. Hell, paint all the concrete on the back of NPS that same red. it would look sexy.

[urban 2.0]

I think that is a deadly attitude. For one, you are completely wrong about it being dull and dead...it's an architectural masterpeice, and it's full of people 365 days of the year...it's a true civic square, where people gather to express themselves...be it positively or negatively (protests). It's a place that is welcoming, and attracts large numbers of residents and tourists alike. Show me any city hall with as much activity.

It's a square, which the primary function is to provide an open space for "anything" to happen on...that's what a square is....want markets, patios and bars...go to Kensington

KGB

... well most squares in the world actually do afford dining/shopping/drinking options. What I say is open up pubs, cafes around the square, allow for more options. Sitting on a bench looking at a fountain is fine and dandy, but wouldn't it be nicer if you could sip a drink, eat some food, etc. Yes I know that some places already exist, but I would add more, give it more a market square feel. As for Kensignton, it could use a public square.

[KGB]

I think I'm going to run for mayor. And when I win, I will save NPS from all this blasphemy, then I will have you lot put to sleep.





KGB

[urban 2.0]

I think I'm going to run for mayor. And when I win, I will save NPS from all this blasphemy, then I will have you lot put to sleep.

KGB

... great! Can't wait.

Make sure you save the crumbling concrete, the brown dirt that used to be grass, all the people sleeping on the benches, the peace park, the chain link fence that stops people from climbing the freedom arches, the air exhaust vents along Queen St., the digital info board sign, the metal railings.

I really hope that we save it all - change is bad!!!! NPS as it stands should be memorialized for future generations!!!

[Taller, Better]

Somehow I didn't expect you would understand or appreciate the original design, Urban2. I guess it is not like anything that you have seen on your journeys to World Class Cities(tm) and it is icky and old. Bulldoze the whole thing down and get Foster to build a brand new taller version like the Encana building. Change is good!

[KGB]

Make sure you save the crumbling concrete, the brown dirt that used to be grass, all the people sleeping on the benches, the peace park, the chain link fence that stops people from climbing the freedom arches, the air exhaust vents along Queen St., the digital info board sign, the metal railings.



Man...all that wasted sarcasim.

If you had been paying attention, all that and more get trashed under my mayoralship. The integrity of the design is what is important...not just for the sake of it (if the origional is crap, there's little point in saving it), but because it is truly superb. This doesn't mean "nothing" can be added...occaisionally new design can be incorporated into the old with success, when it compliments, rather than compromises the origional.


Not very related, but under my mayoralship, I will also be nerve-gassing Durham Region. There's more....much more.






KGB

[KGB]

Ha Ha!!!


After posting the above, I noticed I had a "message" in my box (a rare occurance). I opened it to find one of our esteemed "moderators" had told me the "putting to sleep" of NPS wreckers was worth an "infraction".

I suppose nerve-gassing part of the 905 gets me barred then I guess. LOL


Seriously...I can simply edit my posts to exclude whatever comments anyone wants, but if you can't distinguish between silly, good-natured humour and "insulting members" (I mean, if you want to get literal, it was actually a death-threat, not an insult)....then perhaps moderating is not your calling.

I chose to air this in public, rather than just returning a private message, because I think the general forum membership needs to know what goes on behind the scenes.





KGB

[elliot]

http://www.upside-down.ca/sdphotos/nathan.jpg

No harm in having a little fun to juice things up. And Monsieur Revell would forgive, perhaps applaud a little over the top...

[p5archit]

As long as the original concept is held intact, why should it be a problem to add to the overall feel of the square?

p5

[Taller, Better]

There is no question the square needs to be repaired, and there is no harm adding things if they are sympathetically incorporated. For example, a permanent stage would be welcome. Ugly additions like the skate rental shoebox and the Terry Fox thing should be removed. Surely a better way can be found to house the skating rental place. What the controversy is about is the possible removal of the bridge and walkway that was an integral part of the original plan. Some would have it swept away and completely redesigned, and others like myself would like to see it repaired and made useable again. The Peace monument had good intentions, but it is in the wrong place.

[KGB]

I agree with doing something about a permanent stage....that temporary one is there a lot of the time do to so many functions that require them. It's so big and ugly, it really is a blight on the place. Perhaps something along the lines of the raising and disapearing one they built into Metro Hall? Only REALLY well done.

The space between Osgoode Hall and the western elevated walkway is pretty wasted space...perhaps some form of well-designed food/beverage/seating arrangements could be put there. I agree that all snacks/whathaveyou being confined to the chip wagons and ice-cream trucks on Queen St is pathetic.

The far-northern corridor could be better utilized as well. And Bay St is completely off-limits...they should re-work it so there is an actual sidewalk on the western side of Bay. The green space bwtween Queen St and the southern elevated walkway is underutilized and the grass needs replacing every year...maybe just having grass there is not the best way to use this land....and it's not a small amount of space either...the combined space of the south and western grassy area outside of the perimiter of the elevated walkways probably equals the space of the square itself.

The skate rental/bathrooms/parking lot exit building is indeed ugly...and I think it's actually part of the origional design (not entirely sure though). That would be a good candidate for replacement...perhaps something really interesting.

As long as the origional design is kept intact and the "extras" are removed, these alterations would not have a negative effect on the integrity of the vintage stuff.






KGB

[p5archit]

What both of you (Taller, Better & KGB) are saying makes complete sense. Everything should go, which does not belong to the original design- including the Skate Rental Shack- then cleaned from top to bottom- this includes the City Hall building as well. it is long overdue- this includes cleaning and fixing the observation deck in City Hall.

I completely agree that the there is an awful lot of valuable deadspace inbetween Osgoode Hall and NPS and is completely underutilized- this area should be landscaped and small market/food kiosks should be built there- open all year round.

There is enough which could be done and as MANY have already said, as long as its done respectfully and done well, there shouldn't be a problem in refurbishing NPS.

Now the question will be, whether or not the city makes the right choice in what needs to be done? I look forward to at least seeing the submissions in the coming months (years)..

p5

[Taller, Better]

As far as I know, the skate rental shoebox was an add on. I'd love for us to get our observation deck back on City Hall, too. Shame the way it was closed because of a loose tile or two.

[CrazyCanuck]

Ha Ha!!!


After posting the above, I noticed I had a "message" in my box (a rare occurance). I opened it to find one of our esteemed "moderators" had told me the "putting to sleep" of NPS wreckers was worth an "infraction".

I suppose nerve-gassing part of the 905 gets me barred then I guess. LOL


Seriously...I can simply edit my posts to exclude whatever comments anyone wants, but if you can't distinguish between silly, good-natured humour and "insulting members" (I mean, if you want to get literal, it was actually a death-threat, not an insult)....then perhaps moderating is not your calling.

I chose to air this in public, rather than just returning a private message, because I think the general forum membership needs to know what goes on behind the scenes.





KGB



KGB you need to use some smilies once in a while, half the time I don't know if you are serious or not. It wasn't only the fact that you said you would gas everyone, but it was the fact that some people had an opinion that you didn't like and then said you were going to gas them. A few people might find that a tad offensive, wouldn't you say? What is this behind the scenes stuff you are talking about? For a matter of fact, I didn't even want to send you a message, but this new infraction system made me write something, so I figured I might as well tell you what happened. I will also respond in the public so that everyone will get the truth about really happens behind the scenes.

[KGB]

KGB you need to use some smilies once in a while


Hey...I'm finally using the "quote" function, after how many years?? Now you want emoticons??? SLOOOOOOOW down there hairdo....maybe next year if yer lucky....but don't hold your breath.





half the time I don't know if you are serious or not.


Well, being obvious is not part of my tactics. So...what are you saying....you're not sure if I might actually have homicidal tendencies?





It wasn't only the fact that you said you would gas everyone, but it was the fact that some people had an opinion that you didn't like and then said you were going to gas them.


Hey...I never said I was going to gas the people who had various schemes involving wrecking Revelle's masterpeice...I said I was going to put them to sleep....big difference...getting put to sleep involves a very humane and painless process...no suffering...just like what you'd do for poor kitty.

Nerve gas...now that's an entirely different story...very nasty way to go...it's like being drowned and burning to death at the same time. And I would never do this to Durham Region without first taking a poll (which I just assume would favour such action).






A few people might find that a tad offensive


Throwing a little humour into a debate that's getting a bit too heavy should not be seen as offensive...even if you find the humour a bit too much in bad taste for "your" particular level of comfort.

I think some people need to watch a little more BBC tv...makes me look down-right conservative (personally, I recommend Little Britain)..







Now the question will be, whether or not the city makes the right choice in what needs to be done? I look forward to at least seeing the submissions in the coming months (years)..



Yes, I'm hoping those who make the submissions will more than likely feel the same way about respecting good work of architects when messing around with their creations. I'll be a bit of a cock-eyed optimist and assume any worth their salt will.






KGB

[CrazyCanuck]

I don't mind humour at all KGB, but it's when I can't tell the difference that drives me nuts. :dunno:

Just please keep the death threats to a minimum.( Which means none)
Remember, love not war.
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-020.gif

[Filip]

KGB, Quote? Oh my God... This is a new day for Toronto

[KGB]

KGB, Quote? Oh my God... This is a new day for Toronto


I've been really pissed-off....I have been using it since the sytem was "fixed", and no-one said a word. I used to get grilled constantly for not using it.

You ingrates...I'm gonna ki..l......er....never mind.






KGB

[urban 2.0]

I completely agree that the there is an awful lot of valuable deadspace inbetween Osgoode Hall and NPS and is completely underutilized- this area should be landscaped and small market/food kiosks should be built there- open all year round.


p5


--- THANK YOU --- Finally someone else who has suggested small market - food stalls - clearly you know how a european square works. Tons of chairs and tables where you can grab a pint or coffee and people watch in the late afternoon sun.

Sunday farmer markets, fish stands, people selling junk, it's all great.

Clear out the square of the clutter and ring it with stalls of various vendors.

[KGB]

Sunday farmer markets, fish stands, people selling junk, it's all great.


Well, I don't think that sort of thing would work well there....places to have coffee or a bite is one thing, but markets just wouldn't be practicle...people go to proper neighbourhood markets for that stuff....city hall is just not a convenient or practical location for that.






KGB

[p5archit]

^^I agree that people like their local markets, but i disagree that food/market Kiosks wouldn't work- I know we are a little behind, when it comes to the Square mentality (no-pun intended), but I think Toronto is slowly but surely grasping it..

I am not saying that these kiosks be defined only for 'Market' purposes, but rather amenities which will make people come and use the square at all times of the day to: 'people gaze', shop for stuff and relax and have a coffee, a cold beverage or food of sorts...

The opportunity lies in NPS's situation- it is a very heavily travelled area, by car, transit and of course most importantly pedestrians- the site is also very urban and is surrounded by some fantastic architecture- (not Sheraton or Simpsons Tower) and the trick will be to incorporating and channeling all of the various flows so that the square gets more attention and becomes more integrated into peoples daily lives..

Areas presently acting as paths or connections to NPS should be landscaped and better tied into the overall look and feel of the squre, giving the square defined access points, which act as guides, as well as experiences..

p5

[thryve]

I hope it keeps its linear, simple look, if broken up a bit to make it more green, or organic.

I think it should still match with the City Hall and be still somewhat conservative in its look... that's just me though.

[Filip]

Paint City Hall pink! Install some glowsticks, a disco ball.. and hooray! Club Toronto!

[Taller, Better]

"we are a little behind, when it comes to the Square mentality"

Believe it or not, NPS has long been a genuine meeting place... a real and functional Town Square, in both winter and summer. People make it sound like Torontonians have been just a bit dense about figuring out what it is for, when in fact it is positively alive and thriving everytime I go there. I actually like getting a sausage at the Bavarian Wagon, and am not sure if I want to see ugly permanent "Official" food stalls (a la Harbourfront) constructed just to make it more "European". We do not have to turn NPS into a flea market to make it more attractive. The stately Avenida Paulista in São Paulo has been visually degraded by allowing it to become a huge flea market. I say don't tamper with the formula too much... it is an incredibly successful Square all on its own. It needs repair and fine tuning, but does not need to be "redefined" so that we will be able to figure it out. We already have, long ago.

"Areas presently acting as paths or connections to NPS should be landscaped and better tied into the overall look and feel of the squre, giving the square defined access points, which act as guides, as well as experiences.."

This would be a great idea, and a good addition to Nathan Philp's Square. This is the type of thing we should be focusing on.The side areas are fairly attractive in the Spring and summer, but are desolate in the winter:

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3193/may0506cityhalltulipsiiipz9.jpg

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7026/may0506cityhalltulipsiiof3.jpg

and the tulip bed at the Queen Street side

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9020/may0506cityhalltulipsxa3.jpg

[InTheBeach]

"I've been really pissed-off....I have been using it since the sytem was "fixed", and no-one said a word. I used to get grilled constantly for not using it."

This is great, but I never noticed.

But if we can get you to spell "original" instead of "origional" I will streak down Yonge St.

[KGB]

But if we can get you to spell "original" instead of "origional" I will streak down Yonge St.


Might be difficult...I type superfast and don't think about spelling. There are certain words that while I know the correct spelling, for some reason I have some sort of typing dyslexia. I used to use "it's" for all use of the word, even when it was supposed to be "its". I know the diff, but for some reason, automatically only used the one. I have managed to mostly fix that one, because someone made such an issue of it, it has made me very conscious of it.

So who knows...you may be streaking down Yonge after all. And you can't cheat and do it at the Pride parade or anything....has to be a Wed night in Feb, and all the way from Bloor to Queen.






KGB

[salvius]

Oooh, this is getting interesting.

[Taller, Better]

They are trying to horn in on neilo's action of running naked down the street, pulling his hair out by clumps! I could be wrong, but I think it has been patented.....

[p5archit]

Taller,Better- I see where you are coming from with regards to adding things to the square- however, when I said more permanent structures, I did not necessarily mean on the square itself, but rather along the side(s)-

p5

[Taller, Better]

Taller,Better- I see where you are coming from with regards to adding things to the square- however, when I said more permanent structures, I did not necessarily mean on the square itself, but rather along the side(s)-

p5

Oh, I see... Ithought you meant in the actual square itself. The square is occasionally used for flea market "art exhibit" type things. I guess there would be no harm in allowing the side areas to become a flea market. I'd hate to see it become a daily occurance in the square, though. I am leery of building any permanent booths of any type. Firstly they will probably look ghastly when empty and shuttered up and become covered with graffiti , and secondly I like to think of a town square market vendors as being somewhat "higgledy-piggledy" and not too officially organized. I kind of like the lineup of Wiener Wagons on the front and they seem to serve the purpose.
If I were to suggest one thing that I think the square does not have enough of, that would be seating. I would love to see more integrated seating throughout.

[p5archit]

Seating is a must and it will hopefully be included in some of the proposals- at the moment, the scattered benches are horrible and do nothing for the square.

Regarding the permanent pavilions- i am not too much in favor of a flea-market, but rather stands which sell both food and fruit for immediate consumption as well as for at home..

The wagons along queen are not a problem, considering they are not part of the square anyways..

p5

[Taller, Better]

Maybe there is some way of constructing permanent stalls that will not look like the midway at the CNE, but I am uncertain of the effect. Well, we will just have to wait and see how invasive the proposals will be. One thing that I think Torontonians are not very good at is recognizing when they have done something right. This is a true, functioning Town Hall Square... I can think of no other city in Canada which can say that of its City Hall. Montreal's is beautiful, but with the exception of the odd visiting French President, it is not a "people" square. When I read articles by local architectural critics about NPS, it sounds like the thing is a crumbling, outdated failure that needs to be redesigned... that makes me nervous. I cross my fingers....

[p5archit]

I agree with you about getting things right- however, rare an occasion that may be in Toronto- but i share your concern about it being ruined and i don't want the square to be ruined, but something must be done to clean it up- action must be taken and hopefull it will not come at the expense of redoing the entire space- but if anything hopefully the teams of architects/designers competing will understand this and approach it with respect rather than disdain.

p5

[Taller, Better]

Many of the current crop of architects are egotistical beyond belief, and I can envision some of them wanting to put their strong stamp on it. Maybe Will Alsop would put the Skate Rental shoebox on huge stilts and you would have to go up an elevator to rent the skates! LOL!
I actually believe Toronto does a hell of a lot more "right" than people will ever give it credit for. It is not cool to appear too impressed by anything done in Toronto. I'm not sure where that all comes from.. it doesn't happen that way in any other city I know of.

[urban 2.0]

http://visopsys.org/andy/photo/img/spain/spain%20007.jpg

See the building behind the performers - that is they style and type they should build around NPS...
http://www.turaz.net/turaz_zhao/photo/33/barca04_73.jpg

Same here - small shops, plenty of patio space ...
http://www.akvilontravels.ru/photo/rambla.jpg

[p5archit]

Ahhh....good 'ol La Ramblas...that was home area for almost a year..That is a great pedestrian area- however, i am not so in favor of those huts..i think something better has be done, but i see where you are coming from..

I believe the company responsible for the designs- based in Barcelona and Madrid, is also competing to redesign Toronto's street furniture..could be wrong..

here is a link:

http://www.cemusa.com/web/en/index.aspx

p5

[Taller, Better]

People are remarkably easy to please in the summertime... give them a focal point (such as City Hall itself in the case of this particular Town Square, or a cosy little shopping alley/thorofare... supply some seating, a drink and a snack and they are happy. NPS has accomplished the almost unimaginable in Canada- it is busy year round due to the skating rink and the marvelous winter lighting in the square. But I am inclined to agree with P5archit, permanent huts (and particularily ones that look like standard newspaper vending kiosks like the ones above) are not the best way to go for NPS. They look so forlone and desolate when shuttered up for the winter. The side alleys are too narrow to actually create shopping/pedestrian malls like the ones shown above, but maybe one or two small outdoor cafes can be created on the fringes of the property. The pix above could be from anywhere in the world, and pretty much sum up what people like to do in the summer, be it Spain or be it Dundas Square Queen Street, Harbourfront, The Beach, Distillery District etc... people love to schmooze, chat, People Watch and occasionally to be entertained. Pix I took this summer here in TO:


http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/9307/june1706kensingtonmarketihx5.jpg

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5856/june1706collegestreetlittleitalyidy0.jpg

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/6017/jun1706yongedundassquarevixvv6.jpg

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7706/jun1706yongedundassquarevhu6.jpg

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8082/jun1206queenstvixvendorscb2.jpg

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4868/jun1206queenstviisouvenirmobilesm2.jpg

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3798/jun1206queenststreetsceneiiimh7.jpg

the ubiquitous buskers that look eerily identical around the world:

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/6826/july0806harbourfrontvxiiipt3.jpg

What NPS desperately needs is MORE SEATING, and maybe a few well thought out cafes/food outlets. The side alleys could be cleverly turned into typical "market" spaces in the summer, but on a very modest and temporary scale bearing in mind how narrow the sites actually are. NPS positively bustles in the winter, with skating, so why not sell hot chocolate and light snacks? Easy to do and could be incorporated discretely. I'm amazed one of the million hot dog vendors doesn't set up a Hot Chocolate stand every night on the edge of NPS. He would make a killing!

[Martinsizon]

From City of Toronto News:

December 6, 2006
Finalists named in Nathan Phillips Square Revitalization Design Competition

Four outstanding design teams have been selected as finalists to compete in Stage II of the international competition to revitalize Nathan Phillips Square.

The four teams short-listed by the competition jury to proceed to Stage II of the competition are:

* Baird Sampson Neuert Architects, Toronto, with VLAN Paysages (landscape architect, Montreal); Halcrow Yolles (structural engineer, Toronto); Cobalt Engineering (mechanical engineer, Toronto); and Mulvey & Banani International Inc. (electrical engineer, Toronto)

* Plant Architect Inc., Toronto, with Shore Tilbe Irwin & Partners (architect, Toronto); Peter Lindsay Schaudt Landscape Architecture, Inc. (landscape architect, Chicago); Adrian Blackwell (design collaborator, Toronto); Blackwell Bowick Partnership Limited (structural engineer, Toronto); and Crossey Engineering Ltd. (mechanical and electrical engineers, Toronto)

* Rogers Marvel Architects, New York, with Ken Smith Landscape Architect (landscape architect, New York) and Buro Happold (structural, mechanical and electrical engineers, New York)

* Zeidler Partnership Architects, Toronto, with Group Signes (landscape architect, Paris, France); Halcrow Yolles (structural engineer, Toronto); and Hidi Rae (mechanical and electrical engineers, Toronto)


“On behalf of all Torontonians, I thank the entrants for their thoughtful and creative efforts and the jury for its intense deliberations,” said Mayor David Miller. “The members of the jury faced a challenging task in short-listing the finalists. We look forward to the selection of a winning design in March that will result in the revitalization of Toronto’s premier public space and civic gathering place.”

“Many excellent submissions were received and the creative ideas expressed gave the jury members a full range of approaches to consider,” remarked Peter Ortved, Professional Advisor overseeing the competition. “The short-listed finalists best responded to the challenges outlined in the Competition Brief and the jury looks forward to seeing these conceptual ideas developed in greater detail. I am confident that the final designs will excite the citizens of Toronto.”

Forty-eight teams from around the world, with members from Canada, Chile, China, England, Finland, France, Germany, Iran, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Spain and the United States, submitted design proposals in the first stage of the competition.

The Competition Jury is chaired by Eric Haldenby, architect and Director of the University of Waterloo School of Architecture. Other jury members are: Dinu Bumbaru, internationally recognized heritage architect from Montreal; David Crombie, former Mayor of Toronto and President and CEO of The Canadian Urban Institute; Frances Halsband, architect and partner in the New York firm of R.M. Kliment & Frances Halsband Architects; Cornelia Oberlander, distinguished landscape architect from Vancouver; and Michael Ondaatje, world-renowned author and resident of Toronto.

Stage II finalists will submit detailed design plans by February 16, 2007. A public exhibition of the final designs will be held before the jury meets in early March 2007 to evaluate the designs and select a winner.

The design competition is part of the Toronto Government’s efforts to beautify and restore its public spaces. The City has made a $16-million financial commitment and is seeking an additional $24 million in contributions from other levels of government, the private sector and the business community for Nathan Phillips Square’s revitalization and restoration.

For more information visit www.toronto.ca/npsquarecompetition

Toronto is Canada’s largest city and sixth largest government, and home to a diverse population of more than 2.6 million people. It is the economic engine of Canada and one of the greenest and most creative cities in North America. In the past three years Toronto has won more than 50 awards for quality and innovation in delivering public services. Toronto’s government is dedicated to prosperity, opportunity and liveability for all its residents.

Media contacts:
Peter Ortved, Professional Advisor, CS&P Architects, 416-482-5002
Sheila Glazer, Manager, Strategic Policy and Projects,
Facilities and Real Estate Division, 416-392-0879

[Martinsizon]

NPS finalist designs will be on display with the group presentations in city hall on Febuary 20th.

[metroboi_nay]

NPS finalist designs will be on display with the group presentations in city hall on Febuary 20th.

Thanks for the update, hope someone here can post shots for those who can't make it ;)

[humanscale]

TB's comment about seating in NPS made me think of a great book and video called The Social Life of Small Urban Spaces: by William H. Whyte (sociologist, Columbia Univ) that would be very instructive to the re-developers of Nathan Phillips Square. it is a little dated, but demonstrates how to design a public space for maximum enjoyment, with lots of empirical evidence for how to do seating, shadowing, water features, food vendors, etc...Some of the best public spaces just have movable chairs (I think they have done this in Dundas Square), allowing people to configure them as they please.

[urban 2.0]

TB's comment about seating in NPS made me think of a great book and video called The Social Life of Small Urban Spaces: by William H. Whyte (sociologist, Columbia Univ) that would be very instructive to the re-developers of Nathan Phillips Square. it is a little dated, but demonstrates how to design a public space for maximum enjoyment, with lots of empirical evidence for how to do seating, shadowing, water features, food vendors, etc...Some of the best public spaces just have movable chairs (I think they have done this in Dundas Square), allowing people to configure them as they please.

... thanks for the book title.

It's what I've been saying all along. The city needs to turn it into a true plaza. Turn NPS into the patio of Toronto.

We need companies selling beer and food, put in market stalls for small business, make it a place where you can hang out, people watch for hours.

I'm now in favour of tearing down the walkway, make more space for activities. Get rid of the stupid UN memorial, place it in less busy park.

[KGB]

The most important factor here is respecting the integrity of the original design of the architect. The city has a responsibility to the greater architectural community to preserve what is the last and premier work of a famous architect who died very young.

And we do not respect his design by demolishing a critical element of it.

I think it is possible to do some work on the square to both restore original elements to their original condition, and maybe introduce new elements that are compatable and provide needed seating or whatever.

Viljo Revell is one of the great Finnish architects (who studied under Alvar Aalto), who had a huge impact on the architectural world in his short carreer, although not that well known in general public circles. Trust me, if we wreck one of his greatest works (and one of only two outside of Finland), we will see architectural critics from around the world will decree us as heretics.

And they would be right...you don't deface art....PERIOD!!

His design for city hall consisted of 4 elements...the square, the council chamber, and the two towers flanking it. They are all part of one cohesive form.

We just have to get notions of turning into a fuking food court or flea market or whatever right of our heads. All a proper public square needs is SPACE...and that is already there.

I think people just don't get the design at all...sure...it's Scandanavian modernist...which means rather spare...even bleak. But that's what it is...if you don't like it...too bad...that's art for you.

Want something absolutely stunning...just remove everything that wasn't part of the original design. How easy is that? The elements of this square are perfect...nice open space, with the arched fountain...the elevated walkway which denotes the square's perimeter....the curved grand entrance to the upper council chamber...and a Henry Moore as a cherry on our sundae.

You don't get any better than that.

And people want to piss that away?

Sorry, but sometimes we are our worst enemy. We screw this up and we will be regretting it forever.






KGB

[DrT]

The most important factor here is respecting the integrity of the original design of the architect. The city has a responsibility to the greater architectural community to preserve what is the last and premier work of a famous architect who died very young.

And we do not respect his design by demolishing a critical element of it.

I think it is possible to do some work on the square to both restore original elements to their original condition, and maybe introduce new elements that are compatable and provide needed seating or whatever.

Viljo Revell is one of the great Finnish architects (who studied under Alvar Aalto), who had a huge impact on the architectural world in his short carreer, although not that well known in general public circles. Trust me, if we wreck one of his greatest works (and one of only two outside of Finland), we will see architectural critics from around the world will decree us as heretics.

And they would be right...you don't deface art....PERIOD!!

His design for city hall consisted of 4 elements...the square, the council chamber, and the two towers flanking it. They are all part of one cohesive form.

We just have to get notions of turning into a fuking food court or flea market or whatever right of our heads. All a proper public square needs is SPACE...and that is already there.

I think people just don't get the design at all...sure...it's Scandanavian modernist...which means rather spare...even bleak. But that's what it is...if you don't like it...too bad...that's art for you.

Want something absolutely stunning...just remove everything that wasn't part of the original design. How easy is that? The elements of this square are perfect...nice open space, with the arched fountain...the elevated walkway which denotes the square's perimeter....the curved grand entrance to the upper council chamber...and a Henry Moore as a cherry on our sundae.

You don't get any better than that.

And people want to piss that away?

Sorry, but sometimes we are our worst enemy. We screw this up and we will be regretting it forever. KGB

I propose that we make KGB change his screen name to V of R for "Voice of Reason" --- DrT.

[Waterloo_Guy]

It's the 20th.

[CrazyCanuck]

Patience Waterloo, pics will appear.

[Martinsizon]

City Hall cuts back on $6.2M reno
Staff scales down upgrade plan to $2.9M, but keeps media studio, more room for mayor's staff. It goes to committee Friday

Feb 20, 2007 04:30 AM
Jim Byers
CITY HALL BUREAU CHIEF

They've dropped one of the proposed committee rooms. And they're suggesting councillors not lose their views of Nathan Phillips Square.

But they're still talking about more space for the mayor's office and proposing a fancy media studio for councillors to strut their stuff.

City of Toronto staff was greeted with a barrage of criticism recently when it was revealed they had plans for a $6.2 million renovation at City Hall.

Plans called for upgrading two existing committee rooms, building a studio for press conferences and moving five council members from favoured offices overlooking the square to less desirable digs at the back of the building.

The latter move was proposed so that Mayor David Miller could bring all his staff under one roof and not have them split into separate offices on the second floor, as is now the case.

Miller denounced the plan as too expensive, while councillors moaned about having to move to accommodate the mayor.

Chief Corporate Officer Bruce Bowes said staff sat down with Miller and top bureaucrats and drafted the new plan, to cost between $2.5 and $2.9 million and to go to council's budget committee for consideration on Friday.

Instead of getting rid of two existing committee rooms and making them into larger, state-of-the-art rooms like the two main rooms at City Hall, staff suggested improving one and leaving the other as is.

The new committee room will be built so that it can be split into two smaller rooms, Bowes said, while the media centre/studio also will be designed to be turned into a committee room.

Improving both of the smaller committee rooms on the second floor would've required moving some of the mayor's staff, and the plans called for them to be shifted into space overlooking Nathan Phillips Square – space now used by five councillors.

Some were angry at the idea of leaving their space to make room for the mayor, most notably Councillor David Shiner (Ward 24, Willowdale), a sparring partner of Miller.

The new plan calls for the mayor's new staff to be housed in what is now an entryway into council member's offices, a corridor that splits the mayor's office staff in two.

The councillors will get a new entrance elsewhere on the second floor, and the mayor will be able to house his staff in one convenient spot.

Miller has said he wants to hire new workers to handle environmental issues and economic development matters.

Two new administrative staff also are being proposed, which would bring his staff of 19to 23.

Miller said he needs the increase because he has new powers and responsibilities under the City of Toronto Act brought in by the province.

A spokesperson for Vancouver Mayor Sam Sullivan said has seven workers on staff but pointed out Vancouver has only 600,000 residents; about one-quarter of Toronto's population. An official in the office of Montreal Mayor Gérald Tremblay said there are nine policy workers in his office, plus an unknown number of support staff.

Miller yesterday said he's happy staff brought the price tag down so far and feels the proposed, new setup is a reasonable one. But council still has the last word on the renovations, and some members remain unhappy.

"I don't think we need a media studio," said Councillor Brian Ashton (Ward 36, Scarborough Southwest).

"Council members can hold a press conference anywhere they like."

Bowes told the Star that the city's four second-floor committee rooms are booked 100 per cent of the time and that the city has to turn away groups that want to use the rooms.

But Shiner said that rooms that have been booked often don't get used.

A Star survey of the four rooms on four recent days at City Hall – days when council's major committees have been in session – revealed the rooms were often empty.

In 16 combined checks, there were meetings taking place on only 10 occasions in the four-day survey period; a 62.5 per cent occupancy rate.

[hyral]

Hi, new here but I found this:

TORONTO, Feb. 16 /CNW/ - The media is invited to an advanced viewing of the four final design submissions and an opportunity to interview the design teams before the public exhibition begins at 6 p.m.
Each finalist will make a presentation about their design submission in the Council Chamber, beginning at 7 p.m.

Date: Tuesday, February 20
Time: 5 to 6 p.m.
Location: City Hall Rotunda, 100 Queen St. W.

Hopefully someone can make it today! I'm also eagerly waiting to see the designs..

[KGB]

I really don't know why there is so much bickering over a few million dollars to upgrade facilities at city hall.

I for one don't really mind at all that they budget money to keep city hall facilities properly outfitted to maximize their ability to function as best as possible. I also don't mind serious money spent to keep architectural gems in pristine condition just for the sake of it...I don't see architectural heritage as a "luxury".

They should take a lesson from the province...you don't even want to know how much they have spent on Queen's Park buildings.





KGB

[urban 2.0]

http://www.thestar.com/images/assets/191454_3.JPG

a slide show can be found at the following link:

http://www.thestar.com/columnists/article/183983

[Canadian Chocho]

The design I like the most is the one by Rogers Marvel/Ken Smith Landscape Architect.

[DrT]

Pretty tough to compare these proposals from the slide show renderings.
I'm defering judgement.

[elliot]

Pretty much a snore. ^^


Some bold to reinvigorate and compliment Revel's design is needed, not just plants and lights.

http://www.upside-down.ca/sdphotos/cityhall.jpg

[ggaleazz]

^^^ Wow I love that! Whose proposal is that!?

[Roch5220]

This competition to put a bandaid on city hall seems to me to be a waste of money, for what is going to be had. None of the proposals seem 'wow' to me, but I don't necessarily blame the proposees since they have to work within constraints.

Better yet, the panel of judges should be for those who actually currently and in the future make the most use of the public square. The homeless bums that sleep there at night. I'm sure putting in benches that are 'cushiony' and softer to sleep on is a whole lot cheaper and would provide benefit longer for some then any of these proposals.

[catcher_of_cats]

What a shear disappointment and waste of money. How can the city spend $40 million on something that is extremely similar to that which already exists?

[phunky]

Pretty much a snore. ^^


Some bold to reinvigorate and compliment Revel's design is needed, not just plants and lights.

http://www.upside-down.ca/sdphotos/cityhall.jpg

i remember seeing this design last year. i really liked this one. shame it didn't get into the final 4.

[phunky]

You can view them all here: http://www.toronto.ca/npsquarecompetition/index.htm#onlineex

[Jaye101]

Zeidler Partnership Architects proposal looks cool.

[KGB]

Zeidler's plan is by far the best overall. I like the way they treat what's inside the perimeter of the elevated walkways, which compliments the original design....I especially like the concrete planters and such...very authentic to the design. The added fountain/pond thing is puching it, but it is well executed...like the glass building jutting into it.

Their treatments west of the actual square are great...very art-garden, plus has a restaurant underneath...really nice touch, as well as an added amenity that is badly needed....perhaps they could get one of the chef-superstars of the city to run it?

One thing I'm not too sure about yet is the way it meets Bay St...that's always been a big negative for the square...the complete lack of streetscape or entrance along most of Bay.


Notice how they ALL got rid of that stupid "Peace Garden"...that was a slap in the face to original design.




What a shear disappointment and waste of money. How can the city spend $40 million on something that is extremely similar to that which already exists?


Well, uh....the whole point was to restore and upgrade without infringing on the original design.






KGB

[CrazyCanuck]

I would be happy with any of the choices, there are no terrible designs. I oike how they all have a lot of trees and most want to make the West side more environmentally friendly.

[Waterloo_Guy]

Trees are ok, but in a climate where trees are seasonal, I don't want them to be central to the design.

[phunky]

Trees are ok, but in a climate where trees are seasonal, I don't want them to be central to the design.

the trees aren't seasonal, just the leaves :P and yes I agree. Trees look bad in the winter, so they shouldn't be central to the design for sure.

[urban 2.0]

the trees aren't seasonal, just the leaves :P and yes I agree. Trees look bad in the winter, so they shouldn't be central to the design for sure.

...well it's Nathan Phillips SQUARE - not forest, or park.

Yes I support green trees, parks, grass - but Not here. Everyone knows that this isn't the place for greenery - the grass is ALWAYS a mess. The pedestrian traffic is too great to allow for good growing conditions.

[ratoronto]

Zeidler proposal is the best in my mind...

[officedweller]

I like the Rogers Marvel one the best.
By taking down the walkway on the west side, it unites the dead zone between the walkway and Osgoode Hall with the square. The other proposals seem to treat that area as separate.
The organic curves work nicely with the design of City Hall and the connection between the walkway and the park atop the pavillion creates another reason to access the walkway. A restaurant patio up there overlooking the square would be nice.

[InTheBeach]

...Trees look bad in the winter...

I'm sure I'm a minority on this, but I love naked trees.

Zeidler's is the one that catches my imagination.