Interstate 80 in California [Archive]

Alex Von Königsberg

February 20th, 2007, 03:24 AM

On Sunday I had to make a short trip across the Sierras to Reno, Nevada, so I decided to take some pictures on the way. For those who are not familiar with this region, I-80 is a major artery connecting San Francisco with eastern regions of the country. It runs all the way from New York to San Francisco.

I started off in Aburn and headed East. The interstate there has 3 lanes (down from 4 in the greater Sacramento area) and exceptional asphalt pavement.

http://mikul.net/images/i80/bowman.jpg

http://mikul.net/images/i80/colfax.jpg

The pavement is very good for the first 30 or so kilometres (pics above), and then it becomes concrete and the quality decreases dramatically.

http://mikul.net/images/i80/concrete1.jpg

http://mikul.net/images/i80/concrete2.jpg

This stretch of the interstate is usually under harsh winter conditions with the temperature jumping from -10 to +10 every day, plus you add a constant lory traffic and voila - the poor road condition. As you can see, the cracks and gaps are filled with tar, so it is still more or less bearable.

On the picture below, you can clearly see that the right concrete lane is in much worse shape than the left concrete lane. That's because all the lory traffic should stick to the right.

http://mikul.net/images/i80/concrete_goodvsbad.jpg

When the quality becomes exceptionally bad, they "repair" it by putting an asphalt over the old concrete. Right lane only.

http://mikul.net/images/i80/concrete_asphalt.jpg

And then, the beautiful Sierra Nevada. The road is still in poor shape. Until recently, California was one of the few states that still didn't number motorway exits. They started doing it soon after I moved in. However, California still doesn't use the mile stickers (that are posted every mile), and I think it's a great disadvantage.

http://mikul.net/images/i80/mnt_concrete1.jpg

http://mikul.net/images/i80/mnt_concrete2.jpg

What I like about American road service is that they remove the snow quite quickly early in the morning. When there is a heavy snowfall, passenger cars and 2wd SUVs are required to use chains. This time, it was dry.

http://mikul.net/images/i80/snow.jpg

Finally, I reached O'Donner Summit (2203 metres above the sea level). They built a rest area exactly at the summit. By the way, check this out Donner Party (Cannibalism) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donner_party)

http://mikul.net/images/i80/summit.jpg

Here is something that is quite amazing - a motorway underpass that uses two roundabouts instead of STOP signs or traffic lights. As far as I know, it is one of the kind in California.

http://mikul.net/images/i80/roundabout.jpg

And here is my answer to one of the previous topics " Why European Highways are much better than American ones??". Here is why:

http://mikul.net/images/i80/bad1.jpg

http://mikul.net/images/i80/bad2.jpg

Nowhere, did I see a motorway like this. Nowhere. Even in Russia, motorways are better maintained. In this case, they didn't even care to fill it with tar. Common, is it a third-world country? And it is not a construction area. I travelled extensively througout Europe (both Eastern and Western), but I have never seen these huge cracks on the motorways (local roads - yes, but not motorways).

A couple of words about the concrete divider vs rail. Virtually all motorways in California are equipped with the concrete divider. I have seen several crashes involving the divider, and I should say that they handle collisions very good. On the other hand, I saw a collision involving a rail divider in Eastern Europe, and man, that was a mess. The rail actually went through the driver side of the car and badly injured the driver.

I would also like to mention that American drivers are indeed worse than Europeans in general. Only 40% of drivers care about lane discipline. On this trip alone I saw more left-lane hogs than in all of my European trips combined. I don't know what might be the reason: either people simply don't know that this rule exists or they intentionally block the fast lane. Well, the US driving exam is a joke, and it doesn't seem to get tougher anytime soon.

February 20th, 2007, 10:19 AM

great report

Jean Luc

February 20th, 2007, 11:34 AM

Great photos, Alex! Thanks for posting them. :)

Is there anything they can do to make the pavement better able to withstand the harsh conditions, or can they only do patch-up jobs, as shown in some of your photos, or else complete reconstruction?

Billpa

February 20th, 2007, 01:26 PM

February 20th, 2007, 02:38 PM

^^ u think that Americans don´t have clue that they have so bad roads?

Billpa

February 20th, 2007, 02:48 PM

^^ u think that Americans don´t have clue that they have so bad roads?

I don't think many understand how bad they are compared with the rest of the developed world. I think the average American assumes you just have to put up with X percent of your highway system being cracked or pot hole-ridden.
Put another way; if you were with a random American in a car through that stretch of I-80 shown above and asked what he thought about it, he'd likely say it's seen better days and should be fixed. But he would probably be very surprised to find out that in Germany, as an example, there's nothing even CLOSE to that type of pavement breakup anywhere on the motorway system over there.

gladisimo

February 20th, 2007, 03:01 PM

I would also like to mention that American drivers are indeed worse than Europeans in general. Only 40% of drivers care about lane discipline. On this trip alone I saw more left-lane hogs than in all of my European trips combined. I don't know what might be the reason: either people simply don't know that this rule exists or they intentionally block the fast lane. Well, the US driving exam is a joke, and it doesn't seem to get tougher anytime soon.

40%? You're being optimistic. I would say only maybe about 25% of the drivers have a good sense of how to drive (I really think it's mostly common sense). I get so pissed off when I try to get from San Francisco to Davis. I-80 there is a 3-4 lane freeway, but on most days, everyone is constantly and consistently going ~70mph, hogging the left lane up. Americans always fill up the entire road. So many people also simply should not be driving, do not signal, or simply lack the ability to drive properly...

x-type

February 20th, 2007, 04:00 PM

great report! any tunnels on that road?

Burnout 3

February 20th, 2007, 04:20 PM

nice pics , i like Interstate 80 in New Jersey

ChrisZwolle

February 20th, 2007, 05:34 PM

On the picture below, you can clearly see that the right concrete lane is in much worse shape than the left concrete lane. That's because all the lory traffic should stick to the right.

Does the keep your lane system also apply on 2x2 lane interstates? Or you just have to keep right unless overtaking, like in Europe?

Alex Von Königsberg

February 20th, 2007, 07:26 PM

Does the keep your lane system also apply on 2x2 lane interstates? Or you just have to keep right unless overtaking, like in Europe?
The California law states that if there are 2 or more lanes going in the same direction, all drivers should stay in the right lane unless they pass someone. And this applies to all dual carriageways as well, not only autobahnen. However, the majority of drivers simply disregard this rule. For some reason, they think they should evenly fill the entire road.

That's one thing I don't understand about America. Generally, people follow the rules and regulations, but not when it comes to cooperating with other drivers. In Europe, for instance, other drivers will never block your way and will yield to you even if they need to drive on the shoulder. It is virtually impossible in the USA. It only happened a couple of times in rural areas (both in Texas and California). On the other hand, Americans will always let you pull out of the driveway in front of them (not so in Europe). And yet, I would prefer better if instead of courtesy, Americans followed the law to the letter. Everyone would be better off.

Alex Von Königsberg

February 20th, 2007, 08:01 PM

Is there anything they can do to make the pavement better able to withstand the harsh conditions, or can they only do patch-up jobs, as shown in some of your photos, or else complete reconstruction?
I am not a civil engineer, so I can't answer your question. I know that if an asphalt pavement becomes old on usual streets, they just put a new layer of asphalt right over it. Simple as that. However, I don't know how long the new pavement will hold.

great report! any tunnels on that road?
Not in California. I know they dig tunnels through Rockies, but in Sierra Nevada you will not find many (if any at all).

Paddington

February 21st, 2007, 12:05 AM

Billpa

February 21st, 2007, 01:39 AM

LtBk

February 21st, 2007, 03:55 AM

The California law states that if there are 2 or more lanes going in the same direction, all drivers should stay in the right lane unless they pass someone. And this applies to all dual carriageways as well, not only autobahnen. However, the majority of drivers simply disregard this rule. For some reason, they think they should evenly fill the entire road.

That's one thing I don't understand about America. Generally, people follow the rules and regulations, but not when it comes to cooperating with other drivers. In Europe, for instance, other drivers will never block your way and will yield to you even if they need to drive on the shoulder. It is virtually impossible in the USA. It only happened a couple of times in rural areas (both in Texas and California). On the other hand, Americans will always let you pull out of the driveway in front of them (not so in Europe). And yet, I would prefer better if instead of courtesy, Americans followed the law to the letter. Everyone would be better off.

Slow people moving over to the right should be common courtesy too. I think most Americans are too selfish with their cars.

Alex Von Königsberg

February 21st, 2007, 07:57 AM

So one stretch of rural highway in a sparsely populated part of America that gets some of the most severe weather of the entire continent has a few cracks in the road, and this singlehandedly proves the "superiority" of the German road.

What's the deal with Germans and trying to prove their alleged superiority all the time anyway? :ohno:
Have you heard of the Straw Man Fallacy? That is what you are using now. In my narrative I haven't used word "German" a single time. Furthermore, I personally consider Italian autostradas to be of better quality than German autobahnen. But that would be another discussion.

I indeed compared my experience with American and European motorways by saying that none of the latter were in such a sorry shape as I-80, but such comparison is based on the objective reality. Something that I saw with my own eyes.

What you call "a few cracks" is actually a 60-km (underestimation) stretch of a major interstate connecting Northern California with the rest of the country. This route is vital to the region's economy, and it is a shame that California government cannot keep it in a good shape.

I can't believe you were surrounded by all that spectacular scenery, and all that you focus on were a few potholes in the road to assure yourself of the "superiority" of Germany. That's pathetic. :bash:
Again Germany? :lol: Stop beating the dead horse already.

For your information, I live here. For seven years I have been using this interstate, and I think I have a better understanding of what is going on with I-80. The road has been in this unsatisfactory state for at least 7 years, and there are no talks about making a major restoration yet.

And now my main point. This time I had to use the I-80 to go on a business trip to Reno. This means minimum attention to scenery and maximum effort to get from point A to point B as smoothly and as quickly as possible. I think it would be fair to mention that the majority of other drivers also don't drive there to enjoy the scenery because they have seen it numerous times. What they want now is the smooth road and the quick ride. Frankly, my ride was anything but smooth.

Chicagoago

February 27th, 2007, 04:17 AM

Slow people moving over to the right should be common courtesy too. I think most Americans are too selfish with their cars.

I wouldn't sell us all off that quickly. I believe part of this is because you are connecting a major urban area with a resort area. Urban areas for the most part do NOT obey the lane rules used on the other 90% of US interstates that are rural.

In urban areas there are so many lanes and a high level of traffic - this doesn't let the efficiency of US rules come to play.

Growing up in the midwest and on rural streches of US interstates almost EVERYONE obeys the rules of passing on the left and driving on the right. Growing up in a rural state, this was as much common sense as stopping at a red light. Everyone knew it without thinking. I think people from large urban areas don't understand the rules of the open road as much as people who grew up in this environment. This strech of road is beautiful, but not the symbolism of how people drive long distances in the United States. We're not all selfish :)

As far as the roads, YES, American roads are much lower quality than European roads. They're still drivable though, you would rarely be disturbed or visibly upset by low quality roads. It might not be perfectly smooth, but we're not driving on crumbled concrete and gravel. The weather conditions in many areas of the country are extremely harsh as well - which is a quick death to many roads. Growing up it went from -25C to almost 40C every year.

I envy European roads, and have been on dozens of them, but just giving my 2 cents on ours...

ADCS

February 27th, 2007, 04:37 AM

All this business about how much better European roads are than American roads is silly, really. Americans pay significantly less in gasoline taxes, and the roads are not as good. Guess what? No one has a problem with that. The roads are maybe not the highest quality, but they get the job done. Also, note that the German autobahn system has 12,200 km for 83 million people, while the interstate has 75,376 km for 300 million people. That means in Germany, 6,300 people are paying for every kilometer, as opposed to the US, where about 4,000 people pay for every kilometer. Of course, the quality isn't going to be as good.

Alex Von Königsberg

February 27th, 2007, 04:43 AM

Chicagoago

February 27th, 2007, 07:57 AM

That's true, rural drivers in America see the act of driving along interstates/distances as much more of a "thing" than urban drivers do. There's an act to rural driving that's completely lost among urban drivers - and honestly just adds to the gridlock and delays in our cities. People in cities are so clogged in traffic and stuffed up with other cars everywhere that they just do whatever they can. The lack of traffic and urgency of getting somewhere "NOW' in rural areas lets the true art of interstate driving come through.

Billpa

February 27th, 2007, 11:35 AM

the roads are not as good. Guess what? No one has a problem with that.

Speak for yourself please....I have a BIG problem with the condition of some of our roads here.

gladisimo

February 27th, 2007, 12:30 PM

One interesting thing I would like to mention. I noticed that if we aligned drivers according to their driving skills, it would look like this:
Rural drivers
City drivers (like SF, Chicago, Seattle)
Suburban drivers
Suburban folks are the worst drivers while they are more friendly in person than city people.

With regards to driving skills, or obeying the rules of the road? I believe that rural driving and urban driving is a completely different way of driving, and each have their own set of skills. I have to agree, though, that suburban drivers are the worst (though I'm one myself) I get very frustrated when some people dont follow something as simple as the right of way at stop signs. As far as the moving to right thing is concerned, that rule is certainly more often observed, and more easily so in rural roads than urban roads, and I don't blame people for not moving to the right in the dense traffic in a city. I get frustrated, however, when people ignore it in the suburban sections of the freeways, often times there will be sections of 20-30 cars that are being held up because 4 cars are all traveling at more or less the same speed and occupying all 4 lanes, making it impossible to pass, and leaving a gap half a mile long between its nearest car in front.

Chicagoago

February 27th, 2007, 05:36 PM

^ that's true. On I-290 in the city of Chicago, there is still the noticable "pass left, drive right" when it's not crowded or at night (to a degree, some people just don't realize this rule if they're always driving in a city), but most of the time there's a lot of traffic - and then you can throw that whole logic out the window.

When I get out to I-88 in the outter suburbs though, the "pass left, drive right" really starts to be shown, and when I get to the 2X2 section of road outside the burbs, it's the norm.

ADCS

February 27th, 2007, 06:25 PM

Speak for yourself please....I have a BIG problem with the condition of some of our roads here.

Yeah, but you're in PA, which is notorious for third-world roads;) . The rest of the country isn't as bad.

FM 2258

February 27th, 2007, 08:44 PM

That sure is a beautiful stretch of highway.

Billpa

February 27th, 2007, 08:52 PM

Yeah, but you're in PA, which is notorious for third-world roads;) . The rest of the country isn't as bad.

Pennsylvania's roads, generally, are not the best in the country- but on the other hand American roads in general are much worse off than those of Europe.

ADCS

February 27th, 2007, 09:43 PM

Pennsylvania's roads, generally, are not the best in the country- but on the other hand American roads in general are much worse off than those of Europe.

And they're not going to be better than Europe unless we were to raise gas taxes to way beyond even that of European nations; fewer people pay per mile of American highway than European highway. It's just the nature of the beast, as the US is so much less dense than Europe. It's not just simply that we don't WANT better roads, it's a feasibility issue.

Czas na Żywiec

February 27th, 2007, 10:07 PM

Here is something that is quite amazing - a motorway underpass that uses two roundabouts instead of STOP signs or traffic lights. As far as I know, it is one of the kind in California.

http://mikul.net/images/i80/roundabout.jpg

Ooh, we have a few of those along I-70 in Colorado. I love these things so much better than the usual stoplight/stop sign. Glad to know California is using them too. :okay:

Billpa

February 27th, 2007, 10:38 PM

And they're not going to be better than Europe unless we were to raise gas taxes to way beyond even that of European nations; fewer people pay per mile of American highway than European highway. It's just the nature of the beast, as the US is so much less dense than Europe. It's not just simply that we don't WANT better roads, it's a feasibility issue.

It's too bad we can't be told the truth about the expense of maintaining a good road-system, instead it's always a financial emergency. We just keep ahead of the problems. One of these days, a bridge is going to collapse...wait a minute- that's already happened.

ChrisZwolle

February 27th, 2007, 10:50 PM

It's too bad we can't be told the truth about the expense of maintaining a good road-system, instead it's always a financial emergency.

I wouldn't trust the government too much on that. In NL, the car-owners pays € 20 billion (26 billion USD) every year, but the government only invests like € 2,5 billion (3,3 billion USD) each year, saying there isn't enough money...:ohno:

ADCS

February 27th, 2007, 11:11 PM

I wouldn't trust the government too much on that. In NL, the car-owners pays € 20 billion (26 billion USD) every year, but the government only invests like € 2,5 billion (3,3 billion USD) each year, saying there isn't enough money...:ohno:

For this reason alone, I would only be for higher gas taxes here if the money made were specifically targeted toward the transportation department, and not added to the general fund (which is what pretty much always happens):ohno:

Alex Von Königsberg

March 1st, 2007, 07:57 AM

Ooh, we have a few of those [roundabouts] along I-70 in Colorado. I love these things so much better than the usual stoplight/stop sign. Glad to know California is using them too. :okay:
I know that Colorado is the only state that uses quite a few of them for underpasses and general intersections. I know of five true (aka "modern") roundabouts in Sacramento, and the city officials are planning to build more. The reason is simple: they reduce the accident risk and the risk of serious injuries once it already happened. They improve the traffic flow and help save the environment by eliminating the neccessity to make a full stop and thus reducing the gas emission. Roundabout is always superior to a typical 4-way stop intersection by all means, and the statistique easily confirms that.

Unfortunately, American traffic bureaus are reluctant to install more roundabouts because there is a common belief that an average American driver won't be able to navigate them. Common sense vs. social conservatism. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", social conservatists would say. But what if it could work much better? It appears that Colorado has more common sense than the rest of the country at least in this field :)

ChrisZwolle

March 1st, 2007, 08:10 AM

In The Netherlands, there are tons of them. i have to cross 6 roundabouts getting to work.

Alex Von Königsberg

March 1st, 2007, 08:22 AM

In The Netherlands, there are tons of them. i have to cross 6 roundabouts getting to work.
Ha, UK has more roundabouts than any European country. They build them so often that sometimes I think it looks more like an abuse :nuts:

Verso

March 1st, 2007, 12:45 PM

Thanks for the great report, Alex! The scenery is truly spectacular!! But what I don't understand is why there are so short tunnels in the US; the longest is only 4.2 km-long! :S By such a vast country and high peaks as in the Rocky Mountains, I'm really surprised. Do Americans blow up whole mountains?? :D

Chicagoago

March 1st, 2007, 05:40 PM

^The main area for tunnels would be the Rocky Mountains (there are some near the east coast as well, but that's a very old mountain chain and has been worn down to a gret degree), and there aren't a whole lot of roads going from the east side to the west side. There are many of them, but given the population density on either side - most people fly over the rockies.

Obviously the most appealing way to build a road is to get from point A to point B with spending the least amount of money given what you're accomplishing. I think they can plan out a route with more freedom given the small population density - and build roads where you need the fewest tunnels. If an interstate is going from Salt Lake City to Denver ( the closest large metros along the rockies), you have a lot of room to plan out your route. I think they just stuck near rivers, as they will give you a platform to build roads without going right through a lot of mountains.

10ROT

March 1st, 2007, 09:40 PM

Verso

March 1st, 2007, 11:06 PM

@Chicagoago, this explains it, thanks. :)

austin356

March 3rd, 2007, 09:40 AM

I have my theories about the state of motorways in the US- and of course, it differs by state, as that's how roads are dealt with in America. Not to get too political, but we spend a lot of money militarily overseas that could and should, in my opinion, stay home and on our roads. We also have a populace that seems to put up with the Interstates in the condition they are. If more North Americans were to travel and drive the motorways of Europe I think they'd be shocked at the poor state of those roads back home. I think it'd be a real wakeup call for many.

You should come down south; I cannot remember the last time I hit a single pot hole and I drive 50k a year. Georgia, Texas (when not u/c), and even the poor states of MS and AL all have interstate roads that could not possibly be in any significantly better condition. Now, if you look at Penn., Ohio, and most other states in the region, their roads such, most of which, but not all, is due to lack of federal funding relative to the southern states.

Not that I am arguing against the notion of spending more back into infrastructure, but that is for a different reply (I agree).

It's too bad we can't be told the truth about the expense of maintaining a good road-system, instead it's always a financial emergency. We just keep ahead of the problems. One of these days, a bridge is going to collapse...wait a minute- that's already happened.

Not here, the bridge is brand new, and as smooth as the touch of skin. Our only problem with roads is we cannot build them fast enough (funding issue).

This is the TYPICAL interstate in Georgia:

http://mikul.net/images/i80/bowman.jpg

gladisimo

March 3rd, 2007, 10:26 AM

@Chicagoago, this explains it, thanks. :)

furthermore, its also much easier to build a road on top of passes than through mountains, and it allows plenty more scenery and nice bends

Alex Von Königsberg

March 3rd, 2007, 10:28 AM

gladisimo

March 3rd, 2007, 10:32 AM

You should come down south; I cannot remember the last time I hit a single pot hole and I drive 50k a year. Georgia, Texas (when not u/c), and even the poor states of MS and AL all have interstate roads that could not possibly be in any significantly better condition. Now, if you look at Penn., Ohio, and most other states in the region, their roads such, most of which, but not all, is due to lack of federal funding relative to the southern states.

Not that I am arguing against the notion of spending more back into infrastructure, but that is for a different reply (I agree)

Not here, the bridge is brand new, and as smooth as the touch of skin. Our only problem with roads is we cannot build them fast enough (funding issue).

This is the TYPICAL interstate in Georgia:

50k a year! That's like 150 miles a day! What do you do for a living?

Interesting notion you pointed out, are roads in the state federally maintained? if not, how is funding determined for a particular state? i know in california its often out of necessity that new roads are built/maintained, especially the most heavily traveled roads.

gladisimo

March 3rd, 2007, 10:50 AM

I am not a civil engineer, but I have my theory on how road pavement influences road maintenance. If the road is made of asphalt, it will have an exceptional quality for some time. But when it starts to deteriorate, then it deteriorates badly very quickly, so the dot just have to repair it. On the other hand, the road made of concrete is not as good as asphalt to start with, but it lasts longer and deteriorates slowly. This might be the reason why Caltrans has been ignoring this unsatisfactory conditions of I-80 for a decade.

By the way, in Europe the majority of all motorways are made os asphalt. The only state where the quality of pavement matched that of Italian autostradas was Nevada. I like their signage better too.

I'm not sure what roads are made with in different countries, as a variety of factors determine what the actual road will be made of. The main difference between asphalt and concrete is that asphalt is usually smoother, and less noisy, but are prone to a shorter lifespan than concrete.

However, asphalt is often easy to repair, as fixing something is simply filling a pothole up, though this kind of surfacing is not effective in the long run, because the whole road is not paved over, but rather refilled up, and are probably more sustainable to damage in heavy rain (imagine stopping a leak on a tire with some plastic squirt that solidifies)

Some of this is just inference, and some is stuff I've learned..., maybe someone smart will be able to shed some light on this

Nephasto

March 3rd, 2007, 02:33 PM

However, asphalt is often easy to repair, as fixing something is simply filling a pothole up, though this kind of surfacing is not effective in the long run, because the whole road is not paved over, but rather refilled up, and are probably more sustainable to damage in heavy rain (imagine stopping a leak on a tire with some plastic squirt that solidifies)

In asphalt roads whole stretches of the road have to be repaved from time to time. It's not just covering potholes... that's obviously not enough.

What do you mean by being more sustainable to damage in heavy rain?

Verso

March 3rd, 2007, 04:06 PM

furthermore, its also much easier to build a road on top of passes than through mountains, and it allows plenty more scenery and nice bends

I agree with you, I can't get my eyes away from the pix in this thread, but I was thinking if slopes weren't too steep in such areas, I mean, it's freeways/expressways what we're talking about. But the Brenner Pass between Austria and Italy is kinda the same thing.

gladisimo

March 3rd, 2007, 05:23 PM

In asphalt roads whole stretches of the road have to be repaved from time to time. It's not just covering potholes... that's obviously not enough.

What do you mean by being more sustainable to damage in heavy rain?

They certainly do have to be repaved from time to time, but more often than not, I simply see potholes being filled up. There was a particularly bad hole that would keep getting filled up, then ignored for sometime, and filled up again for about 5 years before they closed the ramp off and repaved the entire section.

The rain damage thing is something I've observed, and might not be true. Frequently, for whatever reason, after heavy rainstorms or rain season, potholes and surface irregularities begin appearing everywhere on the roads, particularly places where I know there were potholes before, and they filled it up.

FM 2258

March 4th, 2007, 01:11 AM

In asphalt roads whole stretches of the road have to be repaved from time to time. It's not just covering potholes... that's obviously not enough.

What do you mean by being more sustainable to damage in heavy rain?

I'm not sure what he meant by the rain but when I'm driving in the rain I feel much safer driving on concrete than on asphalt. The asphalt seems to damn slippery in the rain while the grooves they make in the concrete (also makes that cool whistling sound) seems to work much better with the rain.

Alex Von Königsberg

March 4th, 2007, 04:36 AM

when I'm driving in the rain I feel much safer driving on concrete than on asphalt. The asphalt seems to damn slippery in the rain while the grooves they make in the concrete (also makes that cool whistling sound) seems to work much better with the rain.
Yeah, true. However, in a dry weather, asphalt seems to provide more traction than concrete.

By the way, I recently noticed that when they do major renovation of motorways in California, they put exclusively asphalt. I haven't seen a single new concrete pavement. The road on the very first picture is used to be concrete but they replaced it with asphalt, and this trend is pretty much everywhere.

El Huarache for Real

March 4th, 2007, 05:04 AM

Alex Von Königsberg: I think you are an immigrant. And immigrants usually criticize a lot USA because they don`t have self-confidence.

But you know, I`ve been in Germany and there you don`t find big houses.

90% of Germans live in very small flats. :puke:

We should make another thread: Why europeans can`t afford to live in big houses?

Alex Von Königsberg

March 4th, 2007, 05:33 AM

I am not going to argue with you on this subject because: You have no idea what kind of person I am
This kind of discussion doesn't belong to this forum category
If you want to discuss why Europeans can't afford big houses, then go ahead and open a new thread. But not in "Infrastructure and Mobility" subforum.

ADCS

March 4th, 2007, 06:49 AM

Yeah, true. However, in a dry weather, asphalt seems to provide more traction than concrete.

By the way, I recently noticed that when they do major renovation of motorways in California, they put exclusively asphalt. I haven't seen a single new concrete pavement. The road on the very first picture is used to be concrete but they replaced it with asphalt, and this trend is pretty much everywhere.

The standard practice is to pave in concrete, then after 10-25 years pave over that with asphalt, then 5-15 years after that, do a complete reconstruction of the road. They recently did the asphalt pave-over of I-45 between Houston and Dallas of a road that was built in 1969, which was in near mint condition. A rarity, that's for certain.

Verso

March 4th, 2007, 01:20 PM

ChrisZwolle

March 4th, 2007, 01:49 PM

I'm not sure what he meant by the rain but when I'm driving in the rain I feel much safer driving on concrete than on asphalt. The asphalt seems to damn slippery in the rain while the grooves they make in the concrete (also makes that cool whistling sound) seems to work much better with the rain.

In The Netherlands we use ZOAB Asphalt. That means very open asphalt concrete. It looks like regular asphalt, but it is less dense, so water can poor into it very good. Even in heavy rain there is absolutely no water splashing up! Even with trucks!

It's great, but the opposite side is, that it won't last very long, you can lay down concrete for 30 years, but ZOAB has to be replaced here every 10 - 15 years, because of the heavy traffic we have, and the shorter duration of the asphalt. But it's worth it.

Billpa

March 4th, 2007, 02:53 PM

WTF

There are several Americans who HATE having anything about the US criticized in the least ESPECIALLY if it comes from someone who wasn't born here. I think this is what's going on with this post. The fact is the critique of I-80 and other highways is right on the mark, so the truth wins the day.

Chicagoago

March 4th, 2007, 06:55 PM

I just watched "Modern Marvels; Paving America", and everyone on this thread would be quite interested.

It said when the federal government started it's massive plan in the 50's to pave interstates across America (because the Americans saw the Autobahns they used to chase the Germans back across Germany, and were wildy impressed), they used a test track with many types of surfaces 7 miles long, and drove trucks back and forth on it 24 hours a day for 2 years.

They finally chose to use concrete for the new interstates. After awhile though (I think maybe 10-12 years?), they realized that the concrete was breaking up with cracks to a great degree. They then changed, and the main material used is normally asphalt.

The great thing about asphalt is you can lay it down and drive on it right away. Another great thing is when roads need repaving, they scape up all the asphalt, and are able to fully re-use 80% of that same asphalt on a new smooth road. This is great for recycling, as well as makes the process cheaper than mixing new asphalt.

The one thing, as said, is that asphalt lasts a shorter period - especially since much of the country has temps anywhere from -20/-30 to 35-45C. You can fill in cracks in asphalt with new asphalt though for a few years, but at some point you must scrape it up and throw down new material.

It was amazing to see the history of our roads/highways before 1950. They were HORRIBLE. All the highways had names, and some of them were just dirt/gravel roads. In the 1920's when cars were becoming popular, the government finally spoke up and said "hey, we need some system here". There were dozens of roads in the country with names, and after while people were having to stop too many times because they become lost changing from highway to highway with all these different names.

That's when they developed a system of numbers for all the roads across the country. This way people knew to just look for "Highway 6" or whatever, and people were finding their destinations much more efficiently.

In 1919 the Army took a cross country trip across the country to celebrate the win in WWI, and the convoy was gettings stuck in mud and trapped on steep roads all across the country. The trip was chaos, and many vehicles had to be abandoned along the way. This was the very first time (the 1920's) that the government really started looking into the dire need of roads across the country. The 1930's saw a TON of new roads during the depression, but then everything stopped from around 1941 to 1956 because of WWII, the aftermath, and the Korean War. It was finally in 1956 when the government realized millions of Americans were buying a LOT of cars, and here we were with roads built by hand in the 1920's and 1930's.

Now that 50 years has past since we started the interstates, we're hitting the point in the 2000's that a great many of these roads just need to be replaced. I think it's something the government is going to have to start looking at on a larger level than the "patch and repave" that we've been doing since the system was built.

People say we have bad roads, but we didn't ALWAYS have bad roads - we're just living in a time when our massive interstate system is starting to reach old age. I hope the government can deal with this though, we're starting to see more and more of those 5-10 mile patches of interstates being repaved all over the place. It would cause GREAT disruption though if we went and started to reconstruct the roads at the same level as how they were built. You can't just close 150 miles of I-80 to reconstruct. Too many people depend on those roads today.

Anyway, long babble, but an interesting thought.

ChrisZwolle

March 4th, 2007, 07:21 PM

Yeah, we have that problem too. Most of our Dutch motorways were build in the sixties and seventies, and they need to be repaved too, they repaved some 1000km in 2 years. But our motorways are now too busy to begin such a huge pavement-job.

Vrysxy

March 4th, 2007, 11:20 PM

And here is my answer to one of the previous topics " Why European Highways are much better than American ones??". Here is why:

http://mikul.net/images/i80/bad1.jpg

http://mikul.net/images/i80/bad2.jpg

Just because this road is in bad shape doesnt mean that all the american highways are worst than the european highways.

Billpa

March 5th, 2007, 12:09 AM

Just because this road is in bad shape doesnt mean that all the american highways are worst than the european highways.

Show me any major highway in Western Europe that looks like that. I bet there isn't one to be found. And now Eastern Europe is building good highways as well. I realize the American Interstate system is quite old, but it's not older than the German Autobahn system and the Autobahns, sitting as they do in the center of Europe, are heavily used by trucks and cars.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but we shouldn't be happy with bad highways, especially major cross-country routes like Interstate 80.

Vrysxy

March 5th, 2007, 12:13 AM

but is not that bad..

Alex Von Königsberg

March 5th, 2007, 02:05 AM

but is not that bad..
That stretch of I-80 is THAT BAD, believe me. Driving there as slow as 80 km/h, you start worrying that your suspension will fail. Last time, I remember a motorway in such a sorry shape was in Russia back in 1997. I don't want to compare all American motorways with European ones, but like Billpa said, I have never ever seen such pavement on any European motorway.

Vrysxy

March 5th, 2007, 02:40 AM

alright.. whatever.. but that doesnt mean that all the freeways in the United States are in bad shape..

Alex Von Königsberg

March 5th, 2007, 05:51 AM

You are fighting with the windmills, my friend. No one said that all the freeways in the US are in bad shape.

ADCS

March 5th, 2007, 08:55 AM

There are several Americans who HATE having anything about the US criticized in the least ESPECIALLY if it comes from someone who wasn't born here. I think this is what's going on with this post. The fact is the critique of I-80 and other highways is right on the mark, so the truth wins the day.

There are several Europeans on here who criticize anything the US does given the opportunity. Rather than actually look at the reasons American freeways are not as good as European ones, they would rather take the moment to bash the US. If that has to do with our current president, well, he sucks, and has nothing to do with anything regarding the roads, save for nominating the Transportation Secretary.

Yes, US roads are different from European ones. Yes, they are of inferior quality at times. No, that has nothing to do with any particular deficiency of the American people, it has everything to do with lower gas taxes and the insanely lower density of the US compared to Europe.

Billpa

March 5th, 2007, 11:45 AM

they would rather take the moment to bash the US......

.....that has nothing to do with any particular deficiency of the American people,

Who has said any of the above?
I think you're a little too sensitive about these matters. The American roads infrastructure is quite poor at the moment- pointing that out is not un-American it's just truth-telling. As an American, born and raised, I understand our heads are filled with the idea that America's the greatest country in the world from early on- and challenging that even a little bit- can really start an argument. Oh well, what are you gonna do?:nuts:

gladisimo

March 5th, 2007, 02:02 PM

Its all because people are being too bored =) I was watching an episode of South Park, where people say people only protest because they are bored and have nothing better to do... :lol:

It all keeps the world interesting =)

Chicagoago

March 5th, 2007, 05:35 PM

Can't we all just :hug:

ADCS

March 5th, 2007, 06:31 PM

Who has said any of the above?
I think you're a little too sensitive about these matters. The American roads infrastructure is quite poor at the moment- pointing that out is not un-American it's just truth-telling. As an American, born and raised, I understand our heads are filled with the idea that America's the greatest country in the world from early on- and challenging that even a little bit- can really start an argument. Oh well, what are you gonna do?:nuts:

I don't think we're the best country in the world; in fact, I think anyone claiming such a thing about any country is the height of stupidity. No one said any of the above, however, they are pretty much implied whenever nothing good about what the US is doing is said. Alex von Koenigsburg does a good job of mixing criticism with praise, so I can respect his statements. "Quite poor" is a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think? At the same time, don't you think we do pretty well for ourselves given how much less money goes into our system compared to other Western nations? Not to mention how much less money CAN go into our system per capita compared to other Western nations?

FM 2258

March 5th, 2007, 06:51 PM

In The Netherlands we use ZOAB Asphalt. That means very open asphalt concrete. It looks like regular asphalt, but it is less dense, so water can poor into it very good. Even in heavy rain there is absolutely no water splashing up! Even with trucks!

It's great, but the opposite side is, that it won't last very long, you can lay down concrete for 30 years, but ZOAB has to be replaced here every 10 - 15 years, because of the heavy traffic we have, and the shorter duration of the asphalt. But it's worth it.

Is that the type of asphalt that's kinda "loud" when you drive on it? I actually love the really "rough" asphalt I've seen on some highways especially on Texas 71 on the way to Houston. Let me know if that's what you're talking about. Even in the rain I've driven on that rough type of asphalt at 90mph (144kmh) and felt safe doing that speed.

Billpa

March 5th, 2007, 07:25 PM

"Quite poor" is a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?

Looking at the example given, I think "quite poor" is actually kind. I just happen to believe we have our priorities backwards in this country when it comes to this stuff. We spend like there's no tomorrow all over the world through the military when we have very pressing needs here at home; i.e. the gulf coast, New Orleans, Southern Mississippi and our infrastructure. No one in congress dares cut back on what Bush wants to dump in Iraq, but propose rebuilding a highway and there's "no money" to be found. But it's not just Bush- we've spent a king's ransom over the years in the defense of Europe and other places and, personally, I've had enough.

ChrisZwolle

March 5th, 2007, 07:43 PM

Is that the type of asphalt that's kinda "loud" when you drive on it?

No, it's extremely noise-reducing asphalt, it makes way lesser noise than concrete.

ADCS

March 5th, 2007, 10:16 PM

Looking at the example given, I think "quite poor" is actually kind. I just happen to believe we have our priorities backwards in this country when it comes to this stuff. We spend like there's no tomorrow all over the world through the military when we have very pressing needs here at home; i.e. the gulf coast, New Orleans, Southern Mississippi and our infrastructure. No one in congress dares cut back on what Bush wants to dump in Iraq, but propose rebuilding a highway and there's "no money" to be found. But it's not just Bush- we've spent a king's ransom over the years in the defense of Europe and other places and, personally, I've had enough.

Fair enough, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I for the most part agree with you. I think the problem is that no matter what, even if we did have as high gas taxes as most European nations, our freeways would not be as good, simply because not as many people are paying per mile. That's what I'm trying to say.

gladisimo

March 5th, 2007, 10:58 PM

Fair enough, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I for the most part agree with you. I think the problem is that no matter what, even if we did have as high gas taxes as most European nations, our freeways would not be as good, simply because not as many people are paying per mile. That's what I'm trying to say.

Yea, and it would be impractical for the prices to be that high up in the United States, IMO, the massive urban sprawl and different car culture in America does not leave room for gas prices to get up much higher, especially since there's not very much choice in the way of public transportation.

Plus, are labor/materials costs different in Europe and America? I don't know if that might play a factor.

Alex Von Königsberg

March 6th, 2007, 02:29 AM

Vrysxy

March 6th, 2007, 04:20 AM

There are freeways in Spain like I-80 and even worst than that....

10ROT

March 6th, 2007, 05:20 AM

California has great roads in comparison to the ones here in the Northeast.

czm3

March 6th, 2007, 07:05 AM

California has great roads, but I80 isnt one of them...even so, I80 is only like that for a couple of miles as it crosses through the Sierra Nevada. Generally, Louisiana, New Mexico, and Pennslyvania have the worst roads, while Arizona and Georgia probably have the best. It varies tremendously depending on the actual road.

Alex-there are lots of rotorys and roundabouts in the US, just not on the left coast. Colorado started building them in the mid 90s as a town called Vail refused to install traffic lights at the bottom of their I70 on ramps.

Alex Von Königsberg

March 6th, 2007, 07:18 AM

There are freeways in Spain like I-80 and even worst than that....
Like on the picture? I drove across Spain all the way to Lisboa, and haven't noticed any major pavement deterioration. If you know of some, tell me where you saw it? Autopista/Autovia 7, 4, and 5 were in a very mint condition as far as I remember. Onus probandi is on you, my friend.

ADCS

March 6th, 2007, 08:13 AM

When I started this topic, I didn't really want it to boil down to another "America vs. Europe" thread. My main point was to show how unsatisfactory condition some stretches of I-80 are in right now. I went further and claimed that in Europe they simply did not wait for the road pavement to deteriorate that much. The motorways I use everyday to get to university and other places is quite good.

It was bound to happen, and I am not trying to pick a fight. The fact of the matter is that no one likes to hear criticism of their country from outsiders, yet, outsiders love to give criticism of others' countries, regardless of where they are from. It seems that on this site in particular, there are relatively few Americans compared to the rest of the Internet, so we tend to be a favorite target. Therefore, it is hard to discriminate between mere observation and yet another attack. As stated before, no country or continent is inherently better than another, since we all respond to the particular unique challenges that are placed before us.

Yep, Europe can afford to not wait. They have the money. I'm sure if anyone cared to look at the records about this particular segment of highway, the reason (most likely financial) for its disrepair would be pretty apparent.

Anyway, what good is the fighting? I'm sure there are universals between Americans and most of the rest of the world... :cheers:

Verso

March 6th, 2007, 02:52 PM

^^ I don't think u wanna be compared to North Korea or sth.;) Although, they have fabulous 10-lane highways...:D

At the same time, don't you think we do pretty well for ourselves given how much less money goes into our system compared to other Western nations?Of course, that's the reason; no one expects you to do better job with such amount of money, but the US should put more money into its highways.

Not to mention how much less money CAN go into our system per capita compared to other Western nations?Not only 'Western nations' have good highways, so, yes, the US density is quite low, but it's one of the wealthiest nations on Earth (per capita), so I don't see how this should be a big problem, at least for highways, and especially expressways, where you can't mess around with bad quality, considering high speeds on them.

sbarn

March 6th, 2007, 10:09 PM

This is a completely absurd conversation... i grew up in San Francisco and have driven to Tahoe countless times on Interstate 80. In terms of surface quality, there are sections of the road that are in extremely poor shape. However, you must realize that this is stretch of road endures some of the worst weather in the United States. Donner summit on I-80 could possibly receive more snowfall than any other stretch of interstate in the U.S. Combined this with relatively heavy truck traffic, it is difficult to keep the road in good repair. See below for annual snowfalls on Donner summit:

http://www.micmacmedia.com/Weather/Sierra_Snowfall/CSSL_Snowfall_bar_chart_2005.jpg

That said, I have also driven extensively in Europe. Most recently (this January), I drove from Munich to Kitzbuhel in Austria on the Autobahn. First, I would agree that this stretch of roadway was in great shape - night and day difference when compared to I-80 in the Sierra Nevada. Secondly, people definitely respect the left lane as the "passing lane". I must admit that I was in heaven, since slow driving in the fast lane is my number one pet peeve.

However, I find it ridiculous that people would compare a single stretch of roadway that endures extremely harsh conditions as an example for all of American Highways. Here are a few images of Interstate 80 outside of the harsh conditions of the Sierras:

Here is the start of the highway in San Francisco:
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images101/us-101_nb_exit_433b_01.jpg

... and in Berkeley ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_008b_01.jpg

... and in Richmond ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_011_05.jpg

... in Pittsburgh ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_023_03.jpg

... San Pablo ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_024_02.jpg

... Southern Napa County ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_036_02.jpg

... concrete section, not in the most awesome of shape ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_048_02.jpg

... in the central valley, here it switches back and forth between concrete and asphalt ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_067_02.jpg

http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_070_03.jpg

... a newly repaved section while entering Sacramento (skyline on the left) ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_081_04.jpg

... concrete bridge over the floodplain west of the city ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_081_05.jpg

... concrete section on the business loop around the Sacramento ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_091_03.jpg

... Sacramento section with light rail in the middle ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_094a_04.jpg

... here is an extremely wide section to the east of the city ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_096_04.jpg

... this wide section extends for several miles ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_098_01.jpg

... the road begins to ascend into the Sierra foothills ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_108_01.jpg

... higher ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_110_03.jpg

... soon after this photo is where the Sierra Nevada tour picks up ...

ChrisZwolle

March 6th, 2007, 10:24 PM

http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_011_05.jpg

Why do they've got this kind a road markings, and not ordinary painted lines?

ChrisZwolle

March 6th, 2007, 10:26 PM

Well, i have driven in Eastern Germany and Poland a few years ago, before the huge reconstruction of these Reichsautobahnen, which maintenance was about done by hitler himself, and not since.

Some motorways (German A13, Polish A4) looks more like a gravelpath rather than a full motorways.

Billpa

March 7th, 2007, 12:10 AM

However, I find it ridiculous that people would compare a single stretch of roadway that endures extremely harsh conditions as an example for all of American Highways.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm certainly not basing my argument on that one section of freeway; in fact, I've never driven that stretch of 80 in my life. But I HAVE driven in PA, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, New York, New England, Ohio, Indiana, WV, NC, VA, SC, GA, Fla, Tennessee, Arkansas, Texas and New Mexico and I've experienced roads like that in several states- and in some cases worse. I've also driven in Germany and have studied countless photos of other European motorways and I've not once seen any single piece of motorway in western Europe that looks like that. If one exists, I'd ask that someone please post a photo of it here.

Verso

March 7th, 2007, 12:37 AM

^^ There are of course, they aren't common though. While Italian motorways/freeways (autostrade) are excellent, expressways (superstrade) are often in deadly conditions.

sbarn

March 7th, 2007, 03:00 AM

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm certainly not basing my argument on that one section of freeway; in fact, I've never driven that stretch of 80 in my life. But I HAVE driven in PA, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, New York, New England, Ohio, Indiana, WV, NC, VA, SC, GA, Fla, Tennessee, Arkansas, Texas and New Mexico and I've experienced roads like that in several states- and in some cases worse. I've also driven in Germany and have studied countless photos of other European motorways and I've not once seen any single piece of motorway in western Europe that looks like that. If one exists, I'd ask that someone please post a photo of it here.

I agree that European roads, in general, have a higher surface/pavement quality. However, I also would say that interstate highways in the U.S. fluctuate between great quality and poor quality... thus, many interstates in the U.S. are in great shape.

sbarn

March 7th, 2007, 03:03 AM

http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_011_05.jpg

Why do they've got this kind a road markings, and not ordinary painted lines?

They are called "bot dots" and are only used in states where there is no whether (i.e. snow, ice). They are good in keeping people in their lanes because they make noise when your tires hit them. They are common throughout California... I've also seen them in Washington, Oregon, Nevada and Arizona.

Billpa

March 7th, 2007, 11:41 AM

in the U.S. fluctuate between great quality and poor quality... thus, many interstates in the U.S. are in great shape.

No one has suggested there aren't good Interstates in the US; we've been discussing the overall quality vs Europe- and Europe wins that battle hands down. My point to you is that there is, unfortunately, too many examples of bad Interstate highway sements in the US. Your comment, that using one small sample from I-80 to paint the entire country was ridiculous and absurd, would be accurate, if it were true, which it's not.

gladisimo

March 7th, 2007, 11:46 AM

They are called "bot dots" and are only used in states where there is no whether (i.e. snow, ice). They are good in keeping people in their lanes because they make noise when your tires hit them. They are common throughout California... I've also seen them in Washington, Oregon, Nevada and Arizona.

Also saves the trouble and danger of paint wearing out over time, especially in a road as frequently as traveled as that. (NB that stretch of I-80 is just off of the bay bridge, after an intersection into 580 and 880, the Bay Bridge, as some of you might know is considered one of the most heavily traveled bridges in the entire country)

btw, sbarn, i think the ordering of the pictures on your post last page is off.

sbarn

March 7th, 2007, 05:46 PM

No one has suggested there aren't good Interstates in the US; we've been discussing the overall quality vs Europe- and Europe wins that battle hands down. My point to you is that there is, unfortunately, too many examples of bad Interstate highway sements in the US. Your comment, that using one small sample from I-80 to paint the entire country was ridiculous and absurd, would be accurate, if it were true, which it's not.

You realize I'm agreeing with you that the overall quality of roads in most European countries is better? My point was that Interstate 80 in the Sierras is not an example of 'typical' interstate quality. End of discussion.

Billpa

March 7th, 2007, 06:18 PM

End of discussion.

If it's all the same to you, I and others may wish to continue to discuss this topic. I think the sample of I-80 that got all this going IS typical of too many miles of motorway in the US. Unfortunately, there is a wide range of conditions on American Interstates from very good to very poor. In western Europe you don't have that range- it's generally all very good.

Verso

March 7th, 2007, 09:15 PM

ADCS

March 7th, 2007, 10:35 PM

Why would anyone want to keep people in their lanes? If a car in front of me is slower than me, I'll naturally overtake it. Americans just drive, and don't overtake much?

I think he means more like that in urban traffic (remember, American freeways go straight through the cities), where the traffic density is likely to be high, it's good to have that reassurance so if someone is not paying attention and starts to drift into another lane, they will notice by the vibrations.

ChrisZwolle

March 7th, 2007, 10:50 PM

I think he means more like that in urban traffic (remember, American freeways go straight through the cities), where the traffic density is likely to be high, it's good to have that reassurance so if someone is not paying attention and starts to drift into another lane, they will notice by the vibrations.

I guess that happens more on rural interstates in Wyoming and Nevada, than some city interstate ;)

In Wyoming on the I-80, they've got that kind of broken asphalt on the shoulder, so one who fell asleep or not paying attention, will be alarmed.

ADCS

March 8th, 2007, 04:33 AM

I guess that happens more on rural interstates in Wyoming and Nevada, than some city interstate ;)

In Wyoming on the I-80, they've got that kind of broken asphalt on the shoulder, so one who fell asleep or not paying attention, will be alarmed.

You'd think that, but then again, drivers are complete idiots over here.:bash:

Chicagoago

March 8th, 2007, 05:50 AM

This conversation seems to be going nowhere, just the same crap being thrown back and forth about roads in the US.

ADCS

March 8th, 2007, 06:47 AM

This conversation seems to be going nowhere, just the same crap being thrown back and forth about roads in the US.

Yep, pretty much. I know I'm not helping, either. :nuts:

Verso

March 8th, 2007, 02:13 PM

:hug:

The thread can be closed now. :D

sbarn

March 8th, 2007, 06:17 PM

I agree that European roads, in general, have a higher surface/pavement quality. However, I also would say that interstate highways in the U.S. fluctuate between great quality and poor quality... thus, many interstates in the U.S. are in great shape.

If it's all the same to you, I and others may wish to continue to discuss this topic. I think the sample of I-80 that got all this going IS typical of too many miles of motorway in the US. Unfortunately, there is a wide range of conditions on American Interstates from very good to very poor. In western Europe you don't have that range- it's generally all very good.

I'm confused as to why you keep responding to my statements... you literally restated one of my earlier posts. Let me highlight a few points:

We both agree that the road surface in European countries is of higher quality.
We both agree that some U.S. highways are in terrible shape, while others are in great shape.

Thus, end of OUR discussion.

Billpa

March 8th, 2007, 06:37 PM

I suppose I responded because you said the conversation was absurd and ridiculous. You then informed me the discussion was ended. I guess that's why. Plus we generally have NOT agreed. While we both concede the European motorway system is in better shape, I maintain the original poster's photo of a bad section of I-80 is a great example of what is too often found in the US and its something that needs to be dealt with. I get the impression from your comments that the aforementioned I-80 section is more or less an aberration.

ChrisZwolle

March 8th, 2007, 06:57 PM

How is the I-80 in Pennsylvania?

Billpa

March 8th, 2007, 07:03 PM

How is the I-80 in Pennsylvania?

Parts of it are ok- there is, however, a section just east of I-81 in the eastbound lanes that is simply horrible. The ride is just awful on that stretch and would make you long for the 80 going through the Sierra Nevadas. I don't have a photo of it, but trust me, it's horrible. In fact, it might be the worst section of Interstate highway in the northeast- perhaps not- but I can't think of a worse example off the top of my head.

ChrisZwolle

March 8th, 2007, 09:11 PM

I heard the I-10 west of Baton Rouge is very bad too.

ADCS

March 8th, 2007, 10:22 PM

I heard the I-10 west of Baton Rouge is very bad too.

Yeah, that's pretty awful, but it's condition is probably more a reflection of corruption in Louisiana state politics than it is simply neglect.

Jakes1

March 26th, 2007, 12:19 PM

I worked at a couple of ski resorts in this tahoe area while studying. Donner Ski Ranch and Sugarbowl. The weather extremes combined with heavy traffic takes a toll on the I-80. In spite of the roadsurface - what a drive! And with 33 feet of snow average a year at Donner summit - how hectic is that!? In 2003 we had a single storm dumping 24 feet of snow at the summit - with something like 14-18 feet in truckee... It was crazy.

Chicagoago

March 27th, 2007, 07:16 PM

With this country so vast, and states maintaining their own roads, it's kinda like we're trying to compare the roads in 50 different countries with 50 different geography/climates in one fallow swoop.

Rebasepoiss

March 27th, 2007, 09:03 PM

^Still, again and again I hear americans(and not only) saying that USA is the most powerful country in the world and I think that a country like this should have excellent freeways.

sprtsluvr8

March 27th, 2007, 09:23 PM

^Still, again and again I hear americans(and not only) saying that USA is the most powerful country in the world and I think that a country like this should have excellent freeways.

I think you could safely say that the U.S. DOES have excellent freeways. If you consider the extent of the highway system, the poorly maintained areas must be a small percentage of the total miles of highway.

Paddington

March 27th, 2007, 11:50 PM

Can your country build 5 level stack interchanges and 24 lane expressways? If not, I suggest you STFU, and shove some kraut up your ass. :lol:

Verso

March 28th, 2007, 01:06 AM

^^ Estonia is far from being "the most powerful country in the world", nor did Rabasepoiss say anything like that...

gladisimo

March 28th, 2007, 08:31 AM

Can your country build 5 level stack interchanges and 24 lane expressways? If not, I suggest you STFU, and shove some kraut up your ass. :lol:

24 lane expressways? That sounds immensely inefficient, if nothing else.

Billpa

March 28th, 2007, 11:57 AM

Can your country build 5 level stack interchanges and 24 lane expressways? If not, I suggest you STFU, and shove some kraut up your ass. :lol:

Are you laughing at your own "joke"?

Anyway...people keep talking about the freeze/thaw issues in places like the Sierra Nevada. Roads can be built to withstand that sort of thing, if the agency so chooses....So in my opinion, that's really not a good excuse.

ADCS

March 28th, 2007, 04:52 PM

Are you laughing at your own "joke"?

Anyway...people keep talking about the freeze/thaw issues in places like the Sierra Nevada. Roads can be built to withstand that sort of thing, if the agency so chooses....So in my opinion, that's really not a good excuse.

Examples?

Billpa

March 28th, 2007, 09:30 PM

ADCS

March 28th, 2007, 09:33 PM

Maybe they should speak with Colorado:

http://www.rockymountainroads.com/colorado050/i-070_wb_exit_195_03.jpg

http://www.rockymountainroads.com/colorado050/i-070_wb_exit_190_06.jpg

http://www.rockymountainroads.com/colorado050/i-070_wb_exit_180_17.jpg

http://www.rockymountainroads.com/colorado050/i-070_wb_exit_176_03.jpg

I've driven on those roads several times personally, and they can be just as bad as the Sierra. Those were recently repaved, not to mention the gateway to the state's most important tourist region. It's obvious that Colorado would spend a ton of money on them, while I-80 in California (which is primarily to take money out of state) would be less of a priority.

Billpa

March 28th, 2007, 10:03 PM

Ok, then I guess it's impossible.

Chicagoago

March 29th, 2007, 04:29 PM

The EU has 53,114 KM of motorways covering a population (the stats were for the 15 member EU, which has over 83% of the moterways in Europe ) 392,201,538.

That's 7,384 people for each KM of motorway.

The US has 75,376 KM of interstates (and countless other KM's of limited access highways that aren't actually INTERSTATES) for a population of 301,414,000.

That's 3,999 people per KM of interstate.

That's only 54% of the per person tax base to fund these roads as Europe has. We just don't have the capacity or urgency to have the roads all be in perfect shape.

ChrisZwolle

March 29th, 2007, 07:16 PM

The US has approximatly 94.000 km of road that meet Motorway standards.

Nephasto

March 30th, 2007, 12:12 AM

^^Do you have that number for the EU (15, 25 or 27)?

Chicagoago

March 30th, 2007, 01:20 AM

I don't know the math right now, but the 53K number above was 83.5% of the total for all of Europe. I just segregated it since so much of the network is in the 15 member EU, as opposed to the full Union.

Paddington

March 30th, 2007, 03:47 AM

Ok, then I guess it's impossible.

Except in Germany apparently, where the roads are built by the master race, and are maintained to ultra-smooth standards on pain of death by the fuhrer himself. :lol:

Alex Von Königsberg

March 30th, 2007, 07:31 AM

Except in Germany apparently, where the roads are built by the master race, and are maintained to ultra-smooth standards on pain of death by the fuhrer himself. :lol:
You just have a prejudice against Germany, admit it. You invented a fictious argument and now are trying to defeat it. Well, good luck fighting with your windmills.

Billpa

March 30th, 2007, 11:49 AM

Except in Germany apparently, where the roads are built by the master race, and are maintained to ultra-smooth standards on pain of death by the fuhrer himself. :lol:

Why don't you peddle your offensive nonsense elsewhere.

ADCS

March 30th, 2007, 05:41 PM

Except in Germany apparently, where the roads are built by the master race, and are maintained to ultra-smooth standards on pain of death by the fuhrer himself. :lol:

Ok, yes, that could be construed as offensive, but really, that's pretty funny. :nuts:

Billpa

March 30th, 2007, 09:49 PM

ADCS

March 31st, 2007, 01:45 AM

It's funny how?
We're not exactly dealing with someone here who has the timing of John Cleese; it's just a crap statement from someone who has nothing to add. And it's aimed a country that does a very decent job keeping their motorways at a super-high standard.

Someone with no point going straight to Nazi references about Germany = funny, since it just shows how pathetic the argument has gotten. It's just like whenever anyone brings something up that Bush has done to try to make fun of the United States.

Besides, anyone with half a brain knows that Germany of today is one of the foremost countries of the world, so no worries. There's no harm in laughing at dumb humor once in a while.

Billpa

March 31st, 2007, 02:48 PM

I don't disagree with what you've said. I was actually more offended by the fact that he, or anyone else, thought what was written was funny. From a humor standpoint it's just crap. And by placing the " :lol: " at the end of his "humor" it was all the more pathetic.

sprtsluvr8

March 31st, 2007, 06:57 PM

I thought it was funny...but it's only funny if you're amused by sarcastic/offensive humor. I call it Southpark Humor...equally offensive to all races, nationalities, genders, religions, etc. :)

Alex Von Königsberg

April 1st, 2007, 05:59 AM

Alex Von Königsberg

April 1st, 2007, 09:21 AM

I don't get it. No one can prohibit SSC members to use word d o w n t o w n regardless of whether it is someone's trademark or not. It is pathetic.

ADCS

April 1st, 2007, 07:41 PM

Yeah, that kind of humor might be funny (like Family Guy where they make fun of everyone), but our dude from C-O-L-U-M-B-U-S has got a thing against Germany. Keeping this in mind, it is hard to regard his remarks about Germany simply as humor.

Considering how many people have a thing against the United States on this site, I can sympathize, but at the end of the day, I have less of a chance of changing their opinion than I do of becoming President tomorrow, so really, there's nothing to get worked up over.

ADCS

April 1st, 2007, 07:44 PM

I don't get it. No one can prohibit SSC members to use word d o w n t o w n regardless of whether it is someone's trademark or not. It is pathetic.

I think it has to do with it being April Fool's Day.

-KwK345-

August 23rd, 2007, 04:04 AM

... concrete section, not in the most awesome of shape ...
http://www.westcoastroads.com/california/images075/i-080_eb_exit_048_02.jpg

Why does the sign say "N. Texas" ???

sbarn

August 23rd, 2007, 05:45 PM

^^ Street name in Fairfield, CA.

JeremyCastle

December 28th, 2007, 08:25 PM

Hi, the photos of the I-80 through the Sierra Nevada don't show up on this thread when I open it. Were the photos taken off, or is there something wrong on my end?

TheCat

December 28th, 2007, 10:11 PM

^^ Don't seem to show up for me too. If you look carefully, this thread is extremely old, so it's quite possible that the pictures are no longer available.

DanielFigFoz

December 28th, 2007, 10:18 PM

Look, this thead is to talk about road surface and not to devolp political turmoil, so just shut up, all of you!

TheCat

December 28th, 2007, 11:12 PM

Look, this thead is to talk about road surface and not to devolp political turmoil, so just shut up, all of you!

Old thread :)

DanielFigFoz

December 28th, 2007, 11:21 PM

Old thread :)

Yeah, well it was on the 1st page :nuts:

Alex Von Königsberg

December 30th, 2007, 10:15 PM

Yeah, the pictures are gone for good. Sorry guys ;)

ttownfeen

December 31st, 2007, 12:58 AM

Someone with no point going straight to Nazi references about Germany = funny, since it just shows how pathetic the argument has gotten. It's just like whenever anyone brings something up that Bush has done to try to make fun of the United States.

There's an internet law regarding this matter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

ChrisZwolle

January 6th, 2008, 01:27 AM

I-80 was closed this morning for all traffic near Truckee.

Due to 10 feet of snow dumped in the region

DanielFigFoz

January 6th, 2008, 03:39 PM

I-80 was closed this morning for all traffic near Truckee.

Due to 10 feet of snow dumped in the region

:shocked: 10 feet?

ChrisZwolle

January 6th, 2008, 03:40 PM

That's what they told on CNN this morning. Colorado could eventually even recieve over 13 feet of snow.

mgk920

January 6th, 2008, 07:13 PM

That's what they told on CNN this morning. Colorado could eventually even recieve over 13 feet of snow.
Yea, over 4 meters of it!

This kind of snow is what the Sierra Nevada range is famous for (see: the Donner party)

Mike

ADCS

January 7th, 2008, 11:39 PM

Yea, over 4 meters of it!

This kind of snow is what the Sierra Nevada range is famous for (see: the Donner party)

Mike

It isn't the "Snowy Mountains" for nothing, that's for sure.

Verso

January 8th, 2008, 12:20 AM

I don't think this discussion is productive without pics on the first page. Sad they are gone. :ohno:

Alex Von Königsberg

January 8th, 2008, 02:29 AM

Verso, I thought this topic was long dead, so I was not more careful to save the pictures.

Well, I can give you some pictures of one-metre snow in Eastern Washington if you want ;) Today, I had to make a 230-km round trip to bring my sister-in-law to the Spokane Airport, and the road US-195 was awful. The whole roadway was covered with snow. If you, guys, seen film "Fargo", you would have an idea what i am talking about :)

ChrisZwolle

January 13th, 2008, 11:18 PM

check out these pics from the I-80 from Vallejo to Davis (http://picasaweb.google.com/monterie.roads/USACAI80North), between San Francisco and Sacramento. What a dump this freeway is. :ohno:

Billpa

January 14th, 2008, 01:24 AM

check out these pics from the I-80 from Vallejo to Davis (http://picasaweb.google.com/monterie.roads/USACAI80North), between San Francisco and Sacramento. What a dump this freeway is. :ohno:

That's not a very pretty stretch. Indeed, California continues to amaze me at just how sloppy they are on the Interstates they have there.

FM 2258

January 14th, 2008, 01:34 AM

check out these pics from the I-80 from Vallejo to Davis (http://picasaweb.google.com/monterie.roads/USACAI80North), between San Francisco and Sacramento. What a dump this freeway is. :ohno:

I love California's highway signage. They were pretty much the pioneer of the highway signage we currently use in the United States.

ttownfeen

January 14th, 2008, 02:05 AM

^^ That's the worst part, IMO. They are very cheap about signage in California and don't replace them until they are the verge of falling apartt, even if there's been a major change in route info. You can see that in the off-center and cluttered signs.

keber

January 14th, 2008, 06:36 PM

That's what they told on CNN this morning. Colorado could eventually even recieve over 13 feet of snow.

Yea, over 4 meters of it!

This kind of snow is what the Sierra Nevada range is famous for (see: the Donner party)

So we have an European talking in imperial units, and American, talking in metric units. :lol:

Verso

January 14th, 2008, 07:54 PM

Oh, that's bad. Must be a very uncomfortable ride.

OettingerCroat

January 15th, 2008, 04:37 AM

Oh, that's bad. Must be a very uncomfortable ride.

you're tellin me :lol:

Alex Von Königsberg

January 15th, 2008, 06:32 AM

I love California's highway signage. They were pretty much the pioneer of the highway signage we currently use in the United States.
And look where the North American signage ended up :lol: Apart from jokes, Californian highway signage is so far the worst on the entire West Coast. Several years ago California did not even have exit numbers, and still it doesn't have clear visible mile markers on motorways. Washington signage is better if you ask me.

ChrisZwolle

January 15th, 2008, 12:45 PM

Pics of the I-80 from Sacramento to Oakland. (http://picasaweb.google.com/monterie.roads/USACAI80South)

Is this a metric unit?
http://lh6.google.com/monterie.roads/R4vnECzCqWI/AAAAAAAAB64/eWJFncffsyQ/DSCF6211.JPG?imgmax=800

ChrisZwolle

January 15th, 2008, 01:12 PM

I renamed the thread into a more comprehensive Interstate 80 in California thread.

gladisimo

January 15th, 2008, 04:00 PM

Alex Von Königsberg

January 15th, 2008, 08:28 PM

Alex Von Königsberg

January 15th, 2008, 08:39 PM

The I-80 between SF and Sac is one of the most traveled roads. I've been on it a fair few times (to visit friends at UC Davis), and I have to admit, its pretty crap, but no worse than roads I usually use. (read 101 between SF and San Jose).

Perhaps because of that I didn't notice. One thing I did notice was the sheer amount of traffic. Despite it being a significant stretch, all the lanes were filled and I couldn't find the room to go faster than 70.
I used to live in Sacramento for 6 years, and I had to use the I-80 an awful lot amount of time. The road is indeed crappy, but not crappy enough to make you worry about your suspension. Plus, the whole way from Sacramento to San Francisco is extremely boring, especially when you are stuck in Berkeley in a traffic jam :lol:

One day, on a way to San Francisco airport, we decided to exit in Oakland and get some cash. The time was 23.00 :ohno: Oh boy... can you picture a scary Hollywood movie with burning cars on a ghetto street? That was something like that :nuts:

ADCS

January 16th, 2008, 02:12 AM

Unfortunately, it is an archaic unit. US ton is equal to 2000 pounds (~0,91 metric tonnes)

But then again, it's close enough to be functionally equivalent ;). Usually when you're talking in tons (or tonnes for that matter), precision isn't necessarily that important.

And yeah, California signage sucks it hard. I have to say for all the states I've been in, I like Colorado's signage the best.

Yankeebiscuitfan

January 16th, 2008, 02:16 AM

Slow people moving over to the right should be common courtesy too. I think most Americans are too selfish with their cars.

Funny that you say that. IMO the Americans are much more disciplined in the traffic. This keep your lane system would not work in the Netherlands.

Furthermore: When you approach a junction where the one that stopped first can go first... This would not work overhere either. Lots of Dutchmen are way to selfish to let another person go first.

LtBk

January 16th, 2008, 06:05 AM

Alex Von Königsberg

January 16th, 2008, 06:49 AM

Funny that you say that. IMO the Americans are much more disciplined in the traffic. This keep your lane system would not work in the Netherlands.
It really depends. Driving in a big city, Americans would probably be more disciplined than Spanish, Italians or French; however, when it comes to highway driving, Americans suck big time. BIG TIME :lol: I am talking from the experience ;)

ChrisZwolle

January 16th, 2008, 11:27 AM

Mmmmm experiences i heard from people driving in the United States were all saying Americans drive much more relaxed and disciplined on the freeways.

In Europe, there is always someone tailgating you, and traffic is always turbulent because of the massive amount of lane switches. Though i like it better when trucks are not allowed on other than the 2 right lanes.

Verso

January 16th, 2008, 12:40 PM

The Swiss are the best - overtaking with 1 km/h speed difference.

Nephasto

January 16th, 2008, 03:31 PM

Though i like it better when trucks are not allowed on other than the 2 right lanes.

Are they ever allowed on the other lanes??
As far as I know (at least here in Portugal, and I have the impression it's the same in other countries) trucks are only allowed to drive on the 2 right lanes, regardless of how many lanes the motorway has.

Alex Von Königsberg

January 16th, 2008, 07:23 PM

Mmmmm experiences i heard from people driving in the United States were all saying Americans drive much more relaxed and disciplined on the freeways.
What do you more by "disciplined"? They are relaxed, alright :lol: If Americans were disciplined, then they would follow the signs "Keep right except to pass"/"Slow traffic keep right" that are installed every 5-10 km on the motorways. If they were disciplined, they would not make me overtake them on the right.

KIWIKAAS

January 16th, 2008, 08:10 PM

Contrary to Europe, regular lane switching is discouraged in the US. The ''keep to your lane'' style of driving is the way Americans have traditionally drived and been encouraged to do so. ''Don't be a jack rabbit'' is the saying I believe. On freeways with just 2 lanes each way this can lead to slower traffic holding the left lane. In Europe regular lane changing is encouraged and even the road layout is offen geared towards forcing drivers to change lanes. Quite the opposite approach.

LtBk

January 16th, 2008, 08:32 PM

Oh please, there is no such thing as "keep to you own lane" style of driving. People stay in their lanes because most American drivers are too selfish and stupid to understand the concept of lane discipline among other things they forget to teach. Southern and Eastern European drivers(from what i read) may be crazy and aggressive drivers but they sure know how to drive a hella lot better than the drivers here, especially on the freeways.

KIWIKAAS

January 16th, 2008, 08:53 PM

Maybe it's changed but that certainly was the case as recently as 15 years ago. In the 90's you saw more and more of the ''Keep Left Unless Passing'' signs appear.

Nephasto

January 16th, 2008, 08:55 PM

^^When it comes to motorways in southern Europe (at least here in Portugal) the biggest problem is that people tend to drive too close to the other cars. The safety distances aren't respected by most drivers...

Chicagoago

January 16th, 2008, 09:06 PM

Funny that you say that. IMO the Americans are much more disciplined in the traffic. This keep your lane system would not work in the Netherlands.

Furthermore: When you approach a junction where the one that stopped first can go first... This would not work overhere either. Lots of Dutchmen are way to selfish to let another person go first.

I would agree with that. I've actually driven back and forth across the US multiple times, and have driven through 40 states. I'm quite impressed with out much Americans almost always obey the "pass on the left, ride in the right" rule when not in major metro areas.

Once you get into a crowded area people still tend to stick to the left (cause there aren't exits and you can usually go faster with the flow), but with so many exits and traffic, the whole pass on the left thing is pretty much forgotten. Especially when you're dealing with 4+ lanes going in the same direction.

On rural roads people get very angry when someone is just riding in the left lane and won't move over to let others pass them as they're suppose to. I see it every once in awhile, but honestly not too often. Especially compared with the amount of people driving who obey that rule.

Not sure where some are getting this "Americans wouldn't ever obey that rule, because they're all far too selfish to ever move over or give up a lane". I'm assuming that's just typical stereotyping...

LtBk

January 16th, 2008, 10:09 PM

I admit that its a little harder to keep lane discipline on 8 lane freeways, but thats still a piss poor excuse for driving 50 on the very left lane. We need to improve urban driving somehow cause most people drive on those roads and most road rage happens there. I wonder which urban area has the best discipline on their roads.

Alex Von Königsberg

January 16th, 2008, 11:17 PM

Contrary to Europe, regular lane switching is discouraged in the US. The ''keep to your lane'' style of driving is the way Americans have traditionally drived and been encouraged to do so. ''Don't be a jack rabbit'' is the saying I believe.
I really don't understand where non-US forum members got this idea :ohno: No one is encouraging drivers to senselessly keep their lanes and hog the traffic in the fast lanes. Please stop misinforming others on this subject. The majority of US states post the "keep right except to pass" signs on their motorways, but it is rarely enforced, unfortunately. Just because a lot of American drivers don't drive the right way, it doesn't mean it is encouraged over here.

KIWIKAAS

January 17th, 2008, 12:03 AM

I have seen the "keep right except to pass" signs many times and no I wasn't saying it was incouraged on 2-2 country interstates.
Of course a non US forumer wouldn't have a clue

gladisimo

January 17th, 2008, 01:25 AM

I used to live in Sacramento for 6 years, and I had to use the I-80 an awful lot amount of time. The road is indeed crappy, but not crappy enough to make you worry about your suspension. Plus, the whole way from Sacramento to San Francisco is extremely boring, especially when you are stuck in Berkeley in a traffic jam :lol:

One day, on a way to San Francisco airport, we decided to exit in Oakland and get some cash. The time was 23.00 :ohno: Oh boy... can you picture a scary Hollywood movie with burning cars on a ghetto street? That was something like that :nuts:

It wouldn't be so bad if you didnt have to watch for everyone driving incredibly slow intersected by crazy drivers in a hurry to kill themselves.

I actually went to Oakland's chinatown at 2-3 am a couple times. 'Twas a bit scary.