LA Forum Demographics

[alex3000]

Just wondering...

[soup or man]

Negrosexual.

[phattonez]

How do I pick white/caucasian/Cuban?

[Fern~Fern*]

^ Duh........ your Hispanic!!!!

[phattonez]

But I'm also half Caucasian.

[Fern~Fern*]

But I'm also half Caucasian.


So then your a mut!!!! and choose other!!!!

[Westsidelife]

But I'm also half Caucasian.

You're multiracial. Choose "Other."

[Fern~Fern*]

You're multiracial. Choose "Other."


^ Thank You WS.... He doesn't get it :ohno:

[phattonez]

Just because I'm multiple doesn't mean that I'm "other".

[Westsidelife]

^That's the only option you have.

[Fern~Fern*]

Just because I'm multiple doesn't mean that I'm "other".


^ Yes it does....

Multi~Racial=Mut=other, got it!

[Fern~Fern*]

... Can we get everyone to participate here!!!!

[FROM LOS ANGELES]

... Can we get everyone to participate here!!!!

Yes everyone, even you.

[The Baz]

Settle down Ferney, you certainly need some diversity training. Biracial or multiracial people are not "mutts" or anything like that.

There was a big debate at my undergrad over the "other" box for biracial students and a lot of people didn't understand the sensitivity that goes with that classification. Eventually you were allowed to pick as many boxes as you wanted. Problem solved!

[Fern~Fern*]

[QUOTE=The Baz;13196058]

There was a big debate at my undergrad over the "other" box for biracial students and a lot of people didn't understand the sensitivity that goes with that classification.

^ Life sucks and it's never fair bottom line...... If your more than one race (current Momma & Poppa) not like 10 grandmother's ago crap, then you check off "OTHER". Forget why don't I have more than 1 option crap, then everyone would pretty much checkoff 80% of the options. Here we want to keep it simple as can be. If you have issues because of a word, then take it somewhere else where somebody can have you sit or lay which ever you prefer, with a professional individual who is willing to bring out the culture charts and give you your 15 minutes...

So let's continue with our "BASIC" poll, can we!!!

[alex3000]

Negrosexual.

Funny.

That remainded me of this guy who wrote "Homo American" for ethnicity on his SAT (true story).

[alex3000]

How do I pick white/caucasian/Cuban?

But I'm also half Caucasian.

Oh, at first I thought you were White-Hispanic and I was going to tell you to just choose Hispanic.

Well, just choose other. ;)

Other is pretty much for everything that wasn't listed as an option. :tongue3:

[QUOTE=Ferneynism]

^ Life sucks and it's never fair bottom line...... If your more than one race (current Momma & Poppa) not like 10 grandmother's ago crap, then you check off "OTHER". Forget why don't I have more than 1 option crap, then everyone would pretty much checkoff 80% of the options. Here we want to keep it simple as can be. If you have issues because of a word, then take it somewhere else where somebody can have you sit or lay which ever you prefer, with a professional individual who is willing to bring out the culture charts and give you your 15 minutes...

So let's continue with our "BASIC" poll, can we!!!

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6624/036vq9.jpg

LOL.

[PotatoGuy]

^^ lol

[phattonez]

Other to me just seems like a race that isn't listed. Multi racial, I should be able to put 50% Hispanic and 50% White. So I think that if I vote, it will upset the balance.

[Fern~Fern*]

Oooooops!

[PotatoGuy]

He didnt make the thread, alex3000 did..

and it´s "should have" or "should´ve", not "should of" as you wrote, that makes absolutely no sense...

[Fern~Fern*]

He didnt make the thread, alex3000 did..

and it´s "should have" or "should´ve", not "should of" as you wrote, that makes absolutely no sense...


^ Yeah Whatever...

[soup or man]

You kids are worse than drag queens.

:baeh3:

[ArchiTennis]

me thinks ferney is drunk posting:cheers:

[Fern~Fern*]

me thinks ferney is drunk posting:cheers:

^ Since 4:20...

[alex3000]

You're suppose to get high on 4/20, not drunk (that's on 5 de mayo, :tongue3: )

[Fern~Fern*]

I see there's a couple hand fulls of Angelinos who have not participated with this interesting poll.... 10-4!

[Fern~Fern*]

no activity and participation so let's wrap this one up please... :lock:

[godblessbotox]

you know these would just slide silently into the night if you did not always have to tell someone to lock them...

[ChrisLA]

I can't vote since I'm unable to select two options that define what I am, African American, and Latino/Mexican American.

[ArchiTennis]

^^ Other doesn't work? anyway..this was a topic we were discussing in school not too long ago. It seems that people can only categorize a limited amount of ethnicities and races. If someone doesn't fit into either they prefer to just say other...when in reality it IS a mixture of two....a good example of this is Ferney...look at his previous posts. :D

[Fern~Fern*]

As far as I can remember the word other was checked off if your more than one race. So if it's such a problem can we get someone to edit the poll and add multicultural instead. Then we can have two members (no names) to participate.... :righton:

[Fern~Fern*]

I just noticed that the majority here @ SSC are White & Latinos.... Where's the Middle Easterners at?

So much for L.A. being diverse....

[godblessbotox]

maybe its just that whites and latinos have a higher likelihood of wasting there lives on an internet forum and the rest of the types are out having lives?:dunno:

[nygirl]

Very, very, Italian.

[vahebaronian]

I guess i am the one representing all the Armenians from LA

[soup or man]

Aside from me, who is the other negroid?

...

LANative...sup dawg homeslice? Black hand side and all that.

[CITYofDREAMS]

LANative and I think The Baz, Klamedia... and maybe CarsonCaliBrotha

[Fern~Fern*]

Aside from me, who is the other negroid?

...

LANative...sup dawg homeslice? Black hand side and all that.



Would Dominicans, Panamanians, PuertoRicans, and some Cubans fall under this category?

[CITYofDREAMS]

^^ No they are Hispanics...

[LANative]

Aside from me, who is the other negroid?

...

LANative...sup dawg homeslice? Black hand side and all that.

Haha yeah thats me.

[chicagogeorge]

Would Dominicans, Panamanians, PuertoRicans, and some Cubans fall under this category?

I know Cubans and Puerto Ricans that are very blonde and blue eyed. Of course I know some that are very black too.



BTW,

I'm Greek

[klamedia]

How do I pick white/caucasian/Cuban?

White and Caucasian popularly mean the same thing and Cuban is a nationality. Popular phenotypes in Cuba are people of African descent, European descent or Indigenous descent Cuban, though the island is considered to be overwhelmingly of African descent or mixtures thereof. So pick one.......That's like me saying I'm Black/Negroid/American....which one do I choose?

[Fern~Fern*]

^ We suggested that if he feels more comfortable to choose "other".

[klamedia]

Would Dominicans, Panamanians, PuertoRicans, and some Cubans fall under this category?

All of those are nationalities and not races. Those countries not unlike ours consists of different races.....and calling someone by the colonial term Hispanic is an insult in my book, so is the word 'latino'....what does that mean, Roman??? Have you seen the Dominican baseball players? Don't they look black? Because they are black....though culturally because of Spanish colonialism they fall under the culture of "Hispanic" or "Latino" though they're my relatives. But I don't go around calling myself Irish just because my surname beckons of that....I think it is important to honour your proginators and not your slave master, perhaps one day I will change my name once I do a little more geneology. The countries of Cuba, Puerto Rico, Panama, DR are overwhelming populated by peoples of African descent(part of the African diaspora)because these islands and countries were plantation/slave islands. Brazil btw is the largest "black" country outside of Africa and has more people black people than many countries even within Africa. But Africa doesn't just mean 'black' as Europe can't just mean 'white'......it just isn't as simple as European anthropology would like to make it.

[klamedia]

^ We suggested that if he feels more comfortable to choose "other".

Other than what? And whom?

[soup or man]

All of those are nationalities and not races. Those countries not unlike ours consists of different races.....and calling someone by the colonial term Hispanic is an insult in my book, so is the word 'latino'....what does that mean, Roman??? Have you seen the Dominican baseball players? Don't they look black? Because they are black....though culturally because of Spanish colonialism they fall under the culture of "Hispanic" or "Latino" though they're my relatives. But I don't go around calling myself Irish just because my surname beckons of that....I think it is important to honour your proginators and not your slave master, perhaps one day I will change my name once I do a little more geneology. The countries of Cuba, Puerto Rico, Panama, DR are overwhelming populated by peoples of African descent(part of the African diaspora)because these islands and countries were plantation/slave islands. Brazil btw is the largest "black" country outside of Africa and has more people black people than many countries even within Africa. But Africa doesn't just mean 'black' as Europe can't just mean 'white'......it just isn't as simple as European anthropology would like to make it.

Related, George Carlin said something pretty funny:

'If a white South African came to the US, would he be an African-American?'

[Fern~Fern*]

It's funny cause when ever get relatives from out of the country they always get a kick out how everyone here in branded. In other countries there no color discrimination (not as much) theirs class discrimination only. The poor and rich hardly ever mix, although some economies are booming there's actually a middle class evolving changing the old bad habits.

Maybe WE can change the old branded names and just be consider American. Eventually most here will mate with someone from a different culture and have mix American kidz anyhow. hopefully we would stop the finger pointing and blaming others for everything... "fingers crossed"

[Imperfect Ending]

Asian sensation

[The Baz]

Maybe WE can change the old branded names and just be consider American. Eventually most here will mate with someone from a different culture and have mix American kidz anyhow. hopefully we would stop the finger pointing and blaming others for everything... "fingers crossed"

In a lot of countries there is just not that much diversity to begin with. America really does have a greater mix of races than many international cities I've traveled to. Not much need for racial discrimination if there is only one race dominating everything (see: India, Mexico) but when you start to see large minorities... discrimination is alive and well (see: South Africa, France)

You talk about being considered American but was it not Ferney that posted a thread about "LA Demographics" why the burning interest my dear Fern!

[Fern~Fern*]

^ I just want to see how I'm association with....

I am very against branding people but someone opened this thread so we might as well find out, what's happening!!!:cheers:

Hey are you from India by the way?

[CITYofDREAMS]

All of those are nationalities and not races. Those countries not unlike ours consists of different races.....and calling someone by the colonial term Hispanic is an insult in my book, so is the word 'latino'....what does that mean, Roman??? Have you seen the Dominican baseball players? Don't they look black? Because they are black....though culturally because of Spanish colonialism they fall under the culture of "Hispanic" or "Latino" though they're my relatives. But I don't go around calling myself Irish just because my surname beckons of that....I think it is important to honour your proginators and not your slave master, perhaps one day I will change my name once I do a little more geneology. The countries of Cuba, Puerto Rico, Panama, DR are overwhelming populated by peoples of African descent(part of the African diaspora)because these islands and countries were plantation/slave islands. Brazil btw is the largest "black" country outside of Africa and has more people black people than many countries even within Africa. But Africa doesn't just mean 'black' as Europe can't just mean 'white'......it just isn't as simple as European anthropology would like to make it.

Since the us census bureau decided to use the word "Hispanics" for most of the people coming from south of the border and you disagree with that what do you think it would be the most appropiate name?... and yes I agree we should honour our progenitors, but if they are mixed like in the case of mulatos, mestizos or sambos which one do you honour? This subcontinent called Latin America has been a melting pot for almost 500 years and because the lenguage/culture are the unifying force of most of these countries they have some affinity to each other and don't have any problem identifying themselves under one name "Latino". The term latin refering to the lenguages that derived from that idiom and that covers most of the region.

[klamedia]

and yes I agree we should honour our progenitors, but if they are mixed like in the case of mulatos, mestizos or sambos which one do you honour? This subcontinent called Latin America has been a melting pot for almost 500 years and because the lenguage/culture are the unifying force of most of these countries they have some affinity to each other and don't have any problem identifying themselves under one name "Latino". The term latin refering to the lenguages that derived from that idiom and that covers most of the region.

First off their is much discrimination in latino america, it's called the caste system. Color is a BIG issue from DR to Mexico.....it's not about race it's about hues, darkness/lightness, moreno/blanco........The Spaniards were very effective in their rape and pillage to create a color heirarchy where light is better and it gets worse as you get darker, therefore continuing the push to mix so that your lineage could have a chance at perhaps being lighter or more Eurocentric looking than yourelf. In fact, in Latin American countries it is not uncommon to hear children bearing nicknames that denote their actual skin complexion e.g. cinnamon or caramelo. Here in the US the Dutch and the English adhered to a more stricter apartheid like system where even if a slave mixed with her master the child would be considered not only black but also a slave, this could even go back generations. The good thing to come out of this system was a pressure cooker sort of climate that developed that later gave movement to the Civil Rights movement and ethnic pride movements particularly Black Pride movements, something that sadly has not happened and in the near future will probably not happen in Latin American countries.

And about the whole romanticising the "mixtures" bullshit, all of that is one big lie. In the case of Mexico, their just weren't enough Spaniards to mix everyone into a mestizo/muloatto stew, in fact most Mexicans are still overwhelmingly full-blooded Aboriginal Americans(indians)......and don't believe that all of the indigenous people were dark, short and round either.
And where on Earth would you have 10 masters to 1 slave? Usually it's the other way around isn't it? The same goes for a place like Mexico that imported reams of black African slaves that well outnumbered the Spaniards, in some cases I've read 3 to 1. But how many Mexicans openly claim to be part black? But everyone has a grandmother or grandfather from Spain or at least Italy or part German or Irish or anything but straight up Indian. This is the sad fallout of the caste system and yet racism doesn't exist in these countries right? Why would you need Jim Crow laws or apartheid when you will impose them on yourself anyway? So please stop this 'racism doesn't exist there' crap. Where their is no movement their won't be any resistance.
http://mexica-movement.org/
http://www.afromexico.com/
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/loving.html
http://transformcolumbusday.org/index.html
http://www.isteve.com/
http://www.nypl.org/research/sc/sc.html

Hundreds of years before it hit the Top 40 with Los Lobos, “La Bamba” was being sung and played in the Mexican Gulf part of Veracruzslaves. The music reflects Caribbean and African influences black folks and the lyrics mention aspects of Veracruz; colorful history as Mexico’s principal port of entrywhere slaves came and of invasion.
Mexico had been existing for 25 centuries before the Spanish came they are all but a blip in that countries long history.http://www.musicalspanish.com/labambalyrics.htm

[Yörch]

^^ I don't think race is a BIG issue in Mexico. No, it is not. A BIG issue is the social status. It doesn't matter whether you're black or green if you got the money.

Mexico has a large racial mixture in its population. Native Americans, Spaniards, Frenchs, Philippinos, Italians, Chinese, African, Lebanese, and lots more. BUT something peculiar happened in here: All of them mixed with each others as a result of the weight of the Mexican culture and patriotism thay had over them.

Regarding the most genomic research in the country, 60% of the population is mixed race, 20% caucasians, 12% native americans and 8% other unmixed races.

[klamedia]

Or did they just assume a pan-Hispanic identity even if not mixed? I would be more apt to believe what you claim if every Mexican I know didn't claim some sort of European lineage. Since we know that they did not require every Mexican citizen to undergo a DNA test, then we are left w/ what people believe themselves to be, not what they actually are.......And in a caste based racial system* that exists in Mexico along w/ a social and economic class system, I'd cast a dim eye on the findings.

So you are making the statement that the native aboriginal people freely mixed w/ the Spaniards, voluntarily decimated their own populations, got rid of most of their cultural beliefs in leiu of Catholicism and on top of that gave up their namesake in favor of Gonzales and Rodriguez and not to mention a myriad of written and spoken tongues. Are you krazy?
It was nothing less than rape, kill and conquer!
The Spanish didn't fall in love w/ the Indians.
And the Indians didn't fall in love w/ the Spaniards.
Do they still teach these lies in Mexico??
Please, you've been sniffing too much European history bleach!

[CITYofDREAMS]

First off their is much discrimination in latino america, it's called the caste system. Color is a BIG issue from DR to Mexico.....it's not about race it's about hues, darkness/lightness, moreno/blanco........The Spaniards were very effective in their rape and pillage to create a color heirarchy where light is better and it gets worse as you get darker, therefore continuing the push to mix so that your lineage could have a chance at perhaps being lighter or more Eurocentric looking than yourelf. In fact, in Latin American countries it is not uncommon to hear children bearing nicknames that denote their actual skin complexion e.g. cinnamon or caramelo. Here in the US the Dutch and the English adhered to a more stricter apartheid like system where even if a slave mixed with her master the child would be considered not only black but also a slave, this could even go back generations. The good thing to come out of this system was a pressure cooker sort of climate that developed that later gave movement to the Civil Rights movement and ethnic pride movements particularly Black Pride movements, something that sadly has not happened and in the near future will probably not happen in Latin American countries.

And about the whole romanticising the "mixtures" bullshit, all of that is one big lie. In the case of Mexico, their just weren't enough Spaniards to mix everyone into a mestizo/muloatto stew, in fact most Mexicans are still overwhelmingly full-blooded Aboriginal Americans(indians)......and don't believe that all of the indigenous people were dark, short and round either.
And where on Earth would you have 10 masters to 1 slave? Usually it's the other way around isn't it? The same goes for a place like Mexico that imported reams of black African slaves that well outnumbered the Spaniards, in some cases I've read 3 to 1. But how many Mexicans openly claim to be part black? But everyone has a grandmother or grandfather from Spain or at least Italy or part German or Irish or anything but straight up Indian. This is the sad fallout of the caste system and yet racism doesn't exist in these countries right? Why would you need Jim Crow laws or apartheid when you will impose them on yourself anyway? So please stop this 'racism doesn't exist there' crap. Where their is no movement their won't be any resistance.
http://mexica-movement.org/
http://www.afromexico.com/
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/loving.html
http://transformcolumbusday.org/index.html
http://www.isteve.com/
http://www.nypl.org/research/sc/sc.html

Hundreds of years before it hit the Top 40 with Los Lobos, “La Bamba” was being sung and played in the Mexican Gulf part of Veracruzslaves. The music reflects Caribbean and African influences black folks and the lyrics mention aspects of Veracruz; colorful history as Mexico’s principal port of entrywhere slaves came and of invasion.
Mexico had been existing for 25 centuries before the Spanish came they are all but a blip in that countries long history.http://www.musicalspanish.com/labambalyrics.htm


Huh... did I miss something? Did I ever mention LATAM not being racist?
What I wanted to get to is what is then the proper name to call that region since Latin or Hispanic didn't work for you... How can you picked a name to group the people of all of these very diversed nations? in fact I agree with most of what you say... however that the mixing didn't happen and it's a big lie... Kla I think you are contradicting yourself... "therefore continuing the push to mix so that your lineage could have a chance at perhaps being lighter or more Eurocentric looking than yourelf", "The same goes for a place like Mexico that imported reams of black African slaves that well outnumbered the Spaniards, in some cases I've read 3 to 1. But how many Mexicans openly claim to be part black?" and "it's not about race it's about hues, darkness/lightness, moreno/blanco". So how did all happened without mixing?

And actually the Olmecs the first people in Meso America are believed to come from Africa. Their hieroglyphic writing system was based on the Manding system of West Africa and they were also very influential in the subsequent Maya, Zapotec, and Aztec cultures.

Anyways like you I don't think LATAM will ever deal with the racism/discrimination issues that are so common there because there are some more pressing issues that need to be addressed, like poverty. Which happens to be the biggest social challenge not only for LATAM but for Africa and South East Asia as well.

[CITYofDREAMS]

^^ I don't think race is a BIG issue in Mexico. No, it is not. A BIG issue is the social status. It doesn't matter whether you're black or green if you got the money.

Mexico has a large racial mixture in its population. Native Americans, Spaniards, Frenchs, Philippinos, Italians, Chinese, African, Lebanese, and lots more. BUT something peculiar happened in here: All of them mixed with each others as a result of the weight of the Mexican culture and patriotism thay had over them.

Regarding the most genomic research in the country, 60% of the population is mixed race, 20% caucasians, 12% native americans and 8% other unmixed races.

Yes but the social status in Mexico does have a race at it's very bottom and guess who those are? The Indigenous people.

[Fern~Fern*]

I'm a bit confused here because where are these African/Mexicans at. One of my ex~coworker hooked up with a brother and had 2 kidz which looked PR, Dominican, Brazillian in a way. Other than that I never seen a Mexican with African features. Not saying there's not but I never seen one yet.

Now I will hunt for them to witness one for myself....

[CITYofDREAMS]

I'm a bit confused here because where are these African/Mexicans at. One of my ex~coworker hooked up with a brother and had 2 kidz which looked PR, Dominican, Brazillian in a way. Other than that I never seen a Mexican with African features. Not saying there's not but I never seen one yet.

Now I will hunt for them to witness one for myself....

Ferney just look at the link that Klamedia provided in his response.

http://www.afromexico.com/

[Fern~Fern*]

Ferney just look at the link that Klamedia provided in his response.

http://www.afromexico.com/


I already checked all of them, very interesting stuff. But I yet to see one live and in person. that's what I was referring to on my post.

[CITYofDREAMS]

Then go to Mexico and visit Veracruz, but you can also see African traits in the people of other southern states like Guerrero and Oaxaca.
I have a friend here married to a guy from Oaxaca, when I first met him I swear I thought he was Puerto Rican.

[Yörch]

Or did they just assume a pan-Hispanic identity even if not mixed? I would be more apt to believe what you claim if every Mexican I know didn't claim some sort of European lineage. Since we know that they did not require every Mexican citizen to undergo a DNA test, then we are left w/ what people believe themselves to be, not what they actually are.......And in a caste based racial system* that exists in Mexico along w/ a social and economic class system, I'd cast a dim eye on the findings.

So you are making the statement that the native aboriginal people freely mixed w/ the Spaniards, voluntarily decimated their own populations, got rid of most of their cultural beliefs in leiu of Catholicism and on top of that gave up their namesake in favor of Gonzales and Rodriguez and not to mention a myriad of written and spoken tongues. Are you krazy?
It was nothing less than rape, kill and conquer!
The Spanish didn't fall in love w/ the Indians.
And thallied with them te Indians didn't fall in love w/ the Spaniards.
Do they still teach these lies in Mexico??
Please, you've been sniffing too much European history bleach!

I think that if you're going to give an opinion about Mexican demographics you should at least read a bit of Mexican history.

The Spaniards didn't fight with all the native groups that existed here. They actually made agreements with Tlaxcalans and others to defeat Aztecs. Actually, the main conqueror in Mexico, Hernan Cortés married with a Tlaxcalan: La Malinche, as so many others did. La Malinche even acted as his translator.

Natives were not the last level on the New Hispanic society, they were free. That's why Spaniards brought thousends of people from Africa to be the slaves intstead of the natives.

There are lots of essays regarding this behaviour of the Spanish conquerors that acted totally different from the French and English conquerors up north.

[Yörch]

Yes but the social status in Mexico does have a race at it's very bottom and guess who those are? The Indigenous people.

BUT sometimes that's because Indigenous people don't want to know anything about Mexican culture, (remember they do not feel Mexicans, they are Nahuatl, Mayan, Otomi, and whatever their culture is) that happens when they refuse to belong to the Mexican society. And when they decide to feel Mexican and seek for their opportunities they reach them.

Remember Benito Juarez he was native (Zapotec) and became president of Mexico; Porfirio Diaz he was Zapotec too and also became president. Or nowadays the singer Armando Manzanero; he's Mayan and he's a popular romantic singer that has even more succes on the Mexican elite. ;)

[Fern~Fern*]

The Mexican Government doesn't seemed to care about the Indigenous people anyway. That must be the reason why they are segregated from main Mexican Society, very sad!

[Yörch]

^^ Come on! Do you live down here to know that? There are LOTS of social programs to help Indigenous people. Lots. They have free bilingual education, they have free medical assistance, there are subsidies for their agricultural produces, and there's an article in the Constitution that says that they have the right to keep their laws and legal system. Obviously there's a lot more to do. But those people don't want even to learn Spanish!

[Fern~Fern*]

^ Yeah that's why Mexico is always been blamed for violating human rights. I wonder who their referring to?

But your right you should know more you live down there....

[Yörch]

^^ Regarding human right violations in Mexico the most of times it has to do with the immigrants that cross southern Mexican border in their way to the States. It's really sad how Mexican police treat them. And that's our double moral. We ask to the States to do something we can not do (and we must) with our southern neighbours. :(

But sorry for disturbing in this thread regarding to LA. My English level is not even that well to maintain a serious conversation that these topics need. ;)

[kidA]

My parents are from Aguascalientes, Mexico.

Born and raised in Los Angeles.

Apparently, my family has french/spanish in it.

[klamedia]

I think that if you're going to give an opinion about Mexican demographics you should at least read a bit of Mexican history.

The Spaniards didn't fight with all the native groups that existed here. They actually made agreements with Tlaxcalans and others to defeat Aztecs. Actually, the main conqueror in Mexico, Hernan Cortés married with a Tlaxcalan: La Malinche, as so many others did. La Malinche even acted as his translator.

Natives were not the last level on the New Hispanic society, they were free. That's why Spaniards brought thousends of people from Africa to be the slaves intstead of the natives.

There are lots of essays regarding this behaviour of the Spanish conquerors that acted totally different from the French and English conquerors up north.

That's popular thought. Doesn't everyone know about the Indian/Spaniard romanticism that has been written about, not much different than our Pocahantas and John Smith stories here up north. Listen, if it were a true alliance the "indians" that you claim that should learn Spanish would not be on the bottom of the social/class structure, regardless of which tribe they come from. Yes, we all know that their were some intermarrying and bearing of children but we also know the very sad truths, that their was even more raping and pillaging of the peoples and their resources that created the large "mestizo" population that exists today. And don't get it twisted, Indians were also made slaves as well and the only reason why Africans were brought over was in part for their agricultural skills and the fact that the aboriginals either refused to do the work or like in Puerto Rico the population was decimated. Many of the indigenous were killed by diseases(many were venerial diseases) does anyone know how they got them??? Why would Spaniards sail THOUSANDS OF MILES all the way to Africa when they got millions of bodies right here to do the work? Oh that's right, because the Spaniards fell in love with the Indian and thought them to be naturally superior to the black, 'so hey let's go get some African slaves, I'm sure they have got nothing else better to do'.....more European supremist thought patterns to justify why you are walking around with the last name Gonzales and not Krazy Snake.
And why should the idigenous people have to learn Spanish or take on a Spanish surname or better yet assimilate? That's because if they don't they will be shut out of the larger modern Mexican society. It is sad and it is part of Mexico's open shame. And why don't most Mexicans identify themselves w/ Indians FIRST even if "mixed"? It's really interesting how so many know who their real or imagined European ancestry is but not what tribe they came from........If it were such a worthy and lasting alliance between the natives and the Spaniards wouldn't all things being considered equal most know their indigenous history? And once you learned that wouldn't you then reject colonial barbarism once you learned what had happened to your people?
Let's not sugar coat this please........Just because the Spaniards and Portuguese made alliances with the kings in West Africa for example: rum for slaves or taking of African concubines for x amount of slaves does not make that alliance and how it affected history any more paliatable on either side of the agreement. Just because my greatx2 grandfather was a white Irish slaveholder who got my greatx2grandmother a slave pregnant might make me partially genetically Irish but socially, culturally and from a sense of dignity and resistance why the fuck would I go around telling people that I am part Irish? Or calling myself Celtic? I don't believe that it is something to hide but it certainly isn't something to advocate in lieu of my obvious Africanity and the results thereof. If persons who claim themselves to be "latino" would only begin on this road of rejecting colonialism many things would begin to change at least from a mental standpoint. "Latino", "Mestizo", "Mulatto" all bullshit names created to water down a population to hobble them from ever creating any real change. This is why the Mexica movement and its take on self-identity is probably the best thing going for my "latino" people. I almost jumped up and shouted the day I saw a guy wearing a shirt that read:Not Hispanic, Not Latino" and the shirt goes into detail why these colonized/hold over from slavery names should be rejected. 90% of the revolution is in the mind.

[chicagogeorge]

Has anyone noticed how in Mexican films and soap operas, the people look very Spaniard or Mediterranean looking (white), yet the vast majority of Mexicans are Mestizos, or have more native features. Why is that?

[Fern~Fern*]

Has anyone noticed how in Mexican films and soap operas, the people look very Spaniard or Mediterranean looking (white), yet the vast majority of Mexicans are Mestizos, or have more native features. Why is that?


^^ Maybe the same reason why in American television everyone is White Blond and Blue eyed and rich. When we all know that's not the case!

[Yörch]

That's popular thought. Doesn't everyone know about the Indian/Spaniard romanticism that has been written about, not much different than our Pocahantas and John Smith stories here up north. Listen, if it were a true alliance the "indians" that you claim that should learn Spanish would not be on the bottom of the social/class structure, regardless of which tribe they come from. Yes, we all know that their were some intermarrying and bearing of children but we also know the very sad truths, that their was even more raping and pillaging of the peoples and their resources that created the large "mestizo" population that exists today. And don't get it twisted, Indians were also made slaves as well and the only reason why Africans were brought over was in part for their agricultural skills and the fact that the aboriginals either refused to do the work or like in Puerto Rico the population was decimated. Many of the indigenous were killed by diseases(many were venerial diseases) does anyone know how they got them??? Why would Spaniards sail THOUSANDS OF MILES all the way to Africa when they got millions of bodies right here to do the work? Oh that's right, because the Spaniards fell in love with the Indian and thought them to be naturally superior to the black, 'so hey let's go get some African slaves, I'm sure they have got nothing else better to do'.....more European supremist thought patterns to justify why you are walking around with the last name Gonzales and not Krazy Snake.
And why should the idigenous people have to learn Spanish or take on a Spanish surname or better yet assimilate? That's because if they don't they will be shut out of the larger modern Mexican society. It is sad and it is part of Mexico's open shame. And why don't most Mexicans identify themselves w/ Indians FIRST even if "mixed"? It's really interesting how so many know who their real or imagined European ancestry is but not what tribe they came from........If it were such a worthy and lasting alliance between the natives and the Spaniards wouldn't all things being considered equal most know their indigenous history? And once you learned that wouldn't you then reject colonial barbarism once you learned what had happened to your people?
Let's not sugar coat this please........Just because the Spaniards and Portuguese made alliances with the kings in West Africa for example: rum for slaves or taking of African concubines for x amount of slaves does not make that alliance and how it affected history any more paliatable on either side of the agreement. Just because my greatx2 grandfather was a white Irish slaveholder who got my greatx2grandmother a slave pregnant might make me partially genetically Irish but socially, culturally and from a sense of dignity and resistance why the fuck would I go around telling people that I am part Irish? Or calling myself Celtic? I don't believe that it is something to hide but it certainly isn't something to advocate in lieu of my obvious Africanity and the results thereof. If persons who claim themselves to be "latino" would only begin on this road of rejecting colonialism many things would begin to change at least from a mental standpoint. "Latino", "Mestizo", "Mulatto" all bullshit names created to water down a population to hobble them from ever creating any real change. This is why the Mexica movement and its take on self-identity is probably the best thing going for my "latino" people. I almost jumped up and shouted the day I saw a guy wearing a shirt that read:Not Hispanic, Not Latino" and the shirt goes into detail why these colonized/hold over from slavery names should be rejected. 90% of the revolution is in the mind.

I hope you're not referring to the "Aztlan" Chicano movement that's been raising at LA. That's founded over ultra-nationalism and is quite wrong about some history concepts they have. They couldn't even point in a map where Aztlan was, and it was NOT where Mexico City lays nowadays.

Mexico, is the product of a mixture of races and cultures. Before the Spaniards arrived in here there was no Mexico, there was NOT a concept of a nation. There were a lot of cultures, Maya, Aztec, Otomi, Zapotec, Tlaxcalan, and lots more who were ennemies among them. They were state-cities (such as those in ancient Greece) who even where ennemies of other state-cities despite they were from the same ethnics.

When people or Mexicans fully understand that we are not Spaniards or Aztecs, or Mayan and comprehend that we are just Mexicans... then we'll be able to eat the world. ;)

[Yörch]

Has anyone noticed how in Mexican films and soap operas, the people look very Spaniard or Mediterranean looking (white), yet the vast majority of Mexicans are Mestizos, or have more native features. Why is that?

Because if they were produced in Acapulco with 25% of Afromexican and 26% of Asian population maybe you'd see people of this ethnics on films...

I mean, they are produced in Mexico City where the vast majority are mediterranean looking...

I remember (and it's not a joke) a comment of a friend from Chicago. We were in Mexico City just hanging out and he said: "Why Mexicans in Mexico City don't look like Mexicans?"

I mean, up there in the states the most Mexicans you get come from a few states (Chiapas, Guerrero, Veracruz...) and most of them have Indigenous ethnicity (I'm not going to hide that Indigenous people is maybe the most underprivileged ethnic group in this country)...

And by saying all this I don't want to say: "Look how white European looking the people from my country is" That's a fully "banana-ish" thinking...

I just want to say what the reality is. Ethnic diversity in Mexico is gracefully vast. And want to make a knowledgement to all those other cultures that made what this Mexican culture is but are often forgotten because of the huge weight of prehispanic cultures. Like the Philippino community, (where I came from) we even had a 2d generation Philippino as a president of Mexico (Juan Alvarez)...

;)

[chicagogeorge]

^^

Ok, so it's because of Mexico City's demographics. I still find it a bit strange.

^^ Maybe the same reason why in American television everyone is White Blond and Blue eyed and rich. When we all know that's not the case!

That was true maybe 20-30 years ago, but I think today there are definitely more ethnic groups portrayed on t.v. Big screen movies, MTV, BET, the WB all gear to a wider audience.

[klamedia]

I hope you're not referring to the "Aztlan" Chicano movement that's been raising at LA. That's founded over ultra-nationalism and is quite wrong about some history concepts they have. They couldn't even point in a map where Aztlan was, and it was NOT where Mexico City lays nowadays.

Mexico, is the product of a mixture of races and cultures. Before the Spaniards arrived in here there was no Mexico, there was NOT a concept of a nation. There were a lot of cultures, Maya, Aztec, Otomi, Zapotec, Tlaxcalan, and lots more who were ennemies among them. They were state-cities (such as those in ancient Greece) who even where ennemies of other state-cities despite they were from the same ethnics.

When people or Mexicans fully understand that we are not Spaniards or Aztecs, or Mayan and comprehend that we are just Mexicans... then we'll be able to eat the world. ;)
Alright then, thanx for going around and around w/ me, this obviously is a topic very dear to my soul. Being part of a family that is deeply rooted in Texas and who were of the slave class as well as family members that married into my family in the early 1900's who had come up from Mexico(afro-Mexicanos)w/ the last names of Gonzales and Garcia that are still in active use within my family today this topic means alot to me.
Also the Mexica movement does not call for an Aztlan or anything silly like that from what I'm familiar with. It seems to be more based around self-identity and throwing off the shackles of colonial responses.

[klamedia]

I'm a bit confused here because where are these African/Mexicans at. One of my ex~coworker hooked up with a brother and had 2 kidz which looked PR, Dominican, Brazillian in a way. Other than that I never seen a Mexican with African features. Not saying there's not but I never seen one yet.

Now I will hunt for them to witness one for myself....

You're looking at them everyday.......curly hair, darker than usual complexions....but then again not everyone will have features that you can go 'aha!, you got African in you', the colonial model for identifying race is horribly flawed. I mean really, if it weren't of public knowledge would you think that Halle Berry, Barak Obama, Lenny Kravitz(the name gives it away) or Bob Marley had white first parents?........but they all do. And Slash's mother is black. So you can't always tell.

[Yörch]

^^

Ok, so it's because of Mexico City's demographics. I still find it a bit strange.



That was true maybe 20-30 years ago, but I think today there are definitely more ethnic groups portrayed on t.v. Big screen movies, MTV, BET, the WB all gear to a wider audience.

Sadly the most of times when we see any other ethnic groups but whites on Hollywood films and some major TV chains, there are still lot of ridiculous cliches and stereotypes...

Regarding to the productions in Mexico City, we live a total centralism here in this country. Everything is about Mexico City and with the major TV chains located in that city sometimes it seems that Mexico is nothing else that the capital of the country...

[Yörch]

Alright then, thanx for going around and around w/ me, this obviously is a topic very dear to my soul. Being part of a family that is deeply rooted in Texas and who were of the slave class as well as family members that married into my family in the early 1900's who had come up from Mexico(afro-Mexicanos)w/ the last names of Gonzales and Garcia that are still in active use within my family today this topic means alot to me.
Also the Mexica movement does not call for an Aztlan or anything silly like that from what I'm familiar with. It seems to be more based around self-identity and throwing off the shackles of colonial responses.

I understand your point of view. But we simply can't deny half of our history and roots that like it or not, are part of us. ;)

[Yörch]

You're looking at them everyday.......curly hair, darker than usual complexions....but then again not everyone will have features that you can go 'aha!, you got African in you', the colonial model for identifying race is horribly flawed. I mean really, if it weren't of public knowledge would you think that Halle Berry, Barak Obama, Lenny Kravitz(the name gives it away) or Bob Marley had white first parents?........but they all do. And Slash's mother is black. So you can't always tell.

BTW... This is Kalimba, one of the most famous Mexican pop stars. He's Afromexican as you can see...

http://www.biografiasyvidas.com/biografia/k/fotos/kalimba_2.jpg

[Fern~Fern*]

^^

Ok, so it's because of Mexico City's demographics. I still find it a bit strange.



That was true maybe 20-30 years ago, but I think today there are definitely more ethnic groups portrayed on t.v. Big screen movies, MTV, BET, the WB all gear to a wider audience.

Your right....

the maids
the criminals
The terrorist
the victims
bell boys
drug dealers
or like in my big fat Greek wedding, how Greeks use windex for everything.:|

Yup your absolutely right G!

[chicagogeorge]

^^

Fresh Prince and Bill Cosby would be so upset with you :)

BTW, Windex works!

[klamedia]

I understand your point of view. But we simply can't deny half of our history and roots that like it or not, are part of us. ;)

Of course we wouldn't want a denial of Europes presence in Mexico but less glorification of such.
:)

[Coastal Eddie]

Yay, Other!

[CITYofDREAMS]

Of course we wouldn't want a denial of Europes presence in Mexico but less glorification of such.
:)


Klamedia I know we were discussing about the african influence in Mexico back in July but today there was an article in the LAT about this exact same issue and how there is a precense of afro-mexicans in the LA area... It kind of helped me to understand why there is such of ignorance in Mexico about their african heritage.. but even this tittle from LAT contributes to the cliche.

An unusual blend of cultures: Mexican and black

Email Picture
Ricardo Dearatanha / Los Angeles Times
Maribel Silva, Francisca Dominguez and Vanessa Zorrosa support the Costa Chica soccer team from Pasadena, made up mostly of Mexicans with cultural and racial histories going back hundreds of years to the Spanish conquistadors and the African slave trade.
Immigrants from Costa Chica share an ancient ethnic heritage and culture that few outsiders know about.
By John L. Mitchell, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
April 13, 2008
Every Sunday, on a chewed-up soccer field in Pasadena, Mexican immigrants play a game they learned barefoot in the dusty pueblos along a remote stretch of the Pacific coast.

The Costa Chica team -- named for the picturesque coastline south of Acapulco -- has cut a winning path through the heart of an immigrant-dominated league in Pasadena, capturing three championships in two years.


Photo Gallery
Costa Chicans: A little-known culture
Its players are agile and swift. And they've quickly earned the respect and admiration of opponents who at first didn't know what to make of their talented adversaries.

"Are you really Mexican?" they are sometimes asked.

Their skin is dark. They look Honduran, Dominican or even African American.

Black Mexicans?

"No existe!"

But Costa Chicans -- many dark in complexion with puchunco (curly or kinky) hair -- are Mexicans with cultural and racial histories going back hundreds of years to the Spanish conquistadors and the African slave trade.

As part of the massive wave of Mexican immigrants who began fleeing the economic hardships of their homeland in the 1980s, black Mexicans from the coast settled in communities throughout the United States, in Winston Salem, N.C., Joliet, Ill., and Salt Lake City, among other places.

Some 300 Costa Chicans live in Pasadena, and thousands more can be found in San Bernardino, South Los Angeles, San Juan Capistrano and Santa Ana, all enclaves characterized by close family and community ties.

The story of their journey and survival includes familiar subplots: immigrant families -- some here legally, some not -- struggling to adjust to a new country, establish livelihoods and avoid the perils of urban life. And for Costa Chicans, the unique cultural and racial identities add another layer of complexity as they try to make their way in a new land.

Like all immigrants, this group came here looking to scratch out a better life than the one offered in the small coastal towns of Guerrero and Oaxaca where most were born. Many seemed to have found what they were looking for -- and then some.

By most accounts, Roberta Acevedo, 42, was among the first of the Costa Chicans to migrate to Pasadena. When she and her husband, Francisco, arrived nearly two decades ago, she said she felt safe in this city at the foot of the mountains that reminded her of her pueblo, Jose Maria Morelos, in Oaxaca.

But back then, Pasadena offered little else that seemed familiar. The stores weren't stocked with the spices needed to make beef barbacoa or fish dishes from her native coast. She missed the festivals at which young men performed La Danza de Diablos, a traditional "dance of the devils" in which participants wear masks with long beards and horns.

Costa Chicans are steeped in an Afro-Mexican culture that is evident in dance, food and music -- they listen to cumbia, not mariachi. Acevedo longed for that culture and the sense of closeness that is common in the coastal pueblos where families are large and everyone seems to know everyone else.

Early on, the Acevedo home became a magnet for the migration. Acevedo and her husband would often wake up to calls in the middle of the night: Eight to 10 relatives and friends had crossed the border and were waiting to be picked up, sometimes as far away as Phoenix.

Eventually, Acevedo, who has seven brothers and sisters living nearby, came to own a Pasadena party and gift store selling piñatas and other accessories, renting tables and chairs and video-taping events. Her sister Yolanda, a former Mexico City police officer, is a seamstress who makes gowns for first Communions and quinceaneras, dresses that can cost as much as $500. One of their brothers is the store's videographer.

"My dream was that we would all have a chance to make it," Roberta Acevedo said. "Now I feel my dream has come true."

Despite a shared racial heritage, Afro-Mexicans in Southern California have little interaction with African Americans, the relationships hindered by religious, language and cultural differences. And cultural bonds with other Latinos are sometimes stymied by regional and racial preferences.

"I have African American friends who say, 'You're not Mexicans. I saw you with your dad and he's a black man,' " said Soledad Silver, 16, a junior at John Muir High School in Pasadena. "I say, 'Yeah, he's a black man, but he's also Mexican.' "

In Santa Ana, Yismar Toribio's only knowledge of his parents' birthplace comes from the stories he's heard over the years. San Nicolas and Montecillos are beautiful towns full of tradition, places where you don't stand out if you're black and Mexican -- unlike Santa Ana, where Yismar attends school in a district that is 94% Latino and less than 1% African American.

Things would be better if his school had more blacks, said the 15-year-old freshman with skin the color of rich dark chocolate.

At school, he has been stung by teasing and occasional racial epithets. He doesn't mind the taunts of friends. He can give just as much as he takes.

It's the taunts of strangers that hurt.

"I'm on the cross-country team, and if I come out with a black shirt on they'll say, 'How dare you come out with no shirt on?' "

Yismar lives with it, but he hasn't forgotten. One such memory: A teacher put him in the front of the class and someone shouted, "No, he belongs in the back. Put him in the back of the bus.'"

Yismar's father just wants to keep him focused and is pleased his son has eclipsed his own achievements in school; the accomplishment justifies years of sacrifice. Yismar wants to go to college; he wants to be an attorney.

For many of the Costa Chicans in Southern California, there are reasons to feel pride.

Immigration has brought business success, home ownership, a continuation of community and the chance to improve the level of prosperity back home. The move has also exposed families like the Acevedos to the miseries -- and occasional miracles -- of urban life.

Early on the morning of Sunday, Aug. 27, 2006, just a few hours before a championship soccer game, Fortino "Chino" Acevedo was visiting with a few friends to cap off a night of partying and drinking.

Fortino, the younger brother of Roberta and Yolanda, had moved to the United States in 2003 from his father's home on the outskirts of Mexico City; he'd been sent to live in Pasadena to escape the lure of drugs and violence and took a job as a waiter at a country club in La Cañada Flintridge.

As he sat on nearby doorsteps early that morning with his friends, Fortino spotted three men surrounding a fourth near Orange Grove Boulevard and Lake Avenue. It looked like a holdup. He had once been robbed and wanted to put a stop to it.

The 20-year-old with a winning smile stepped into the crowd and announced: "If you are going to have a problem, have a problem with me," said Max Dahlstein, of the Pasadena Police Department. There was a fight, one of the men pulled a gun and shot Fortino in the face.

"He was trying to stop someone from being hurt and he ended up getting shot himself," Dahlstein said.

Fortino was rushed to Huntington Hospital, where the family gathered at his bedside. Several hours later he was pronounced dead.

Doctors encouraged the Acevedo family to consider organ donation; from Mexico, the family patriarch granted permission.

At the time of the shooting, Angel Zorrosa, a 26-year-old distant relative from the same pueblo as the Acevedos, was on kidney dialysis and had just been listed to receive a transplant. Hours after Fortino was declared dead, Zorrosa got a call: As a family member, he would be given priority to receive a kidney.

"I had just been approved that week for a transplant," Zorrosa said.

Last October, Zorrosa witnessed the birth of his first child, a son named Angel Luis. He weighed 5 pounds, 4 ounces.

The birth was a message, said Roberta Acevedo. "I try to find something about Chino in his child."

"Negro, Chimeco y Feo" -- black, dirty and ugly -- is the title of a popular song from Costa Chica. The lyrics describe the life of a man who is born in a shack on the coast of Mexico with a midwife's help. He grows up attending pigs and fishing for shrimp with an old net; because he is poor, he makes his way in the world with almost no clothes.

But the lyrics go on to explain that his soul is pure, unlike those who were "born in clean diapers," those with lighter skin.

It's a song that reminds Neri Cisneros, who lives in Santa Ana, of his childhood.

"I was that little boy," he said. "I would eat beans and I didn't have shoes.

"Sometimes we were the children playing in the streets without underwear. When I hear that song, it makes me sad because I used to live that life."

Cisneros, like many Costa Chicans in Southern California, is nostalgic about his childhood and misses the land of his birth. But he is the father of three daughters who have never set foot in Mexico. He is intent on raising them here. He will not soon return to Costa Chica.

On the day Fortino was shot, the Costa Chicans had a championship soccer game. They played the match and won.

It was important to keep the team focused on playing, said Martin Ibarra Aleman, the team's coach. The streets are too much of a distraction.

"If you are on the street, then you are heading for trouble," Aleman said. "The guys who play soccer are dealing with the game. For two hours they are in the game and that is all they care about."

But when the game is over, they return to lives shaped by immigration. Steady work has not always been easy to find. Many don't have driver's licenses and face stiff penalties if they're caught on the road in their cars. They worry about the safety and future of their children, most of whom were born here.

At the Sacred Heart Church in Altadena, Padre Glyn Jemmott, a Roman Catholic priest from Trinidad and Tobago who has had a parish of a dozen Costa Chican pueblos since 1984, said Mass one recent Sunday for a congregation of some 500.

Later, he challenged the group to apply their skills in organizing a winning soccer team to strengthening their community. The change is up to them, he said.

"If you have water and you want to get the water to the roots of the plant, you have to carry it there," he said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-afromex13apr13,0,7409207,full.story

[Fern~Fern*]

^^ Sounds funny Afro-Mex, not a common sight as those other Hispanics with strong African blood....

Are you sure those on the pix are not originally from Belize who migrated to Mexico and then landed here in the Southland???

Just a thought* :dunno:

[CITYofDREAMS]

^ have you ever been to Acapulco?

[Fern~Fern*]

^ have you ever been to Acapulco?


^ In a matter of fact I have and 99% are from Belize. Just check out all the mini food stand on the beach sand and whom is actually working them. Maybe some Mix with local Mexicans and they had kidz and whatnot. So it's fairly a new community within the last couple of years...

[VZN]

Wow... how did I miss this thread the first time?

That article and the discussions contained in this thread are VERY interesting. Good stuff, good stuff...

[AlexTheMartian]

Speaking of Afro-Mex, somewhere far back in my family tree is Pio Pico, the last Mexican governor of Alta California, and he was something like half Mexican, half Black (technically African, Native American, and Spanish). I think my mom's cousin still has the last name Pico. and Pico Blvd in West LA is named after him.

[AlexTheMartian]

ok, I put down White, but like, I am like half Hispanic, but I look obviously white, so, yeah. I wish i could have split my vote, haha.